Steve G.

Bob Barr bringing in ringers to manipulate the convention vote

In Corruption, Fraud, Libertarian, Libertarian Convention, Libertarian Party-US, Libertarian Politics, Libertarian Politics 2008, Politics, Presidential Candidates on May 20, 2008 at 4:31 pm

An allegation was made recently, that Bob Barr was bringing in “ringers” to vote for him at the convention. It is true, as the below message proves.

Is it even legal in the LP, to bring in ringers like this? If so, it shouldn’t be, and it is a very good example of why the major parties choose delegates well in advance of the convention.

Either way, it shows just exactly how “principled” Bob Barr really is, that he would engage in such distasteful and fraudulent practices in a blatant attempt to manipulate the Libertarian Party, its delegates, and its convention.

While normally I would redact personal information before posting, in this case – given that fraud against the convention is involved – I have decided to leave it all intact.

By now, I’m sure you’ve heard the media buzz surrounding Bob Barr and his recent announcement to run for the Libertarian nomination. Everyone, including the media, has been talking about Barr and the Libertarian Party. According to Tobin Harshaw at the New York Times, “While Paul has been a thorn in McCain’s side ever since he became the presumptive nominee, Barr seems to be the threat the G.O.P. is taking more seriously for now.”

If you’re like me, you’re getting excited about the spotlight this has brought to our party, and you’re excited about what a Bob Barr nomination would mean for the Libertarian Party. But Bob Barr has one more hurdle to overcome first…the Libertarian Party’s nominating convention this coming weekend in Denver. Remember, at the 2004 Libertarian National Convention, the top three candidates polled within 12 votes of each other on the first ballot (Russo 258, Badnarik 256, Nolan 246).

Don’t let this happen to Bob Barr! Join the campaign and be a delegate for Bob Barr. For those of us without the means to get to Denver on our own, we’re organizing a charter bus trip that will take 55 Bob Barr supporters out to Denver for the vote, and then drive straight back after the vote. No hotel fees or convention “extras” needed!

Cost per person for the bus trip: $182

Tentative Bus schedule:

Leaving Columbus, OH 11am EDT on Saturday, stopping for pickups in Indianapolis, St. Louis, and Kansas City, arriving in Denver Sunday morning for the general session (and presidential vote).
after the voting is complete (probably around 5pm), eat dinner and load the bus for the trip home, returning to Columbus, OH late Monday evening.

If you’re interested in joining the Bob Barr team out in Denver, and you live within driving distance of Columbus, Indianapolis, St. Louis or Kansas City, please email me TODAY at maguire_tj@hotmail.com. Remember, the vote is this coming Sunday, so your response is needed immediately.


Timothy J. Maguire
9166 Cinnebar Drive
Indianapolis, IN 46268
317-372-6436

About these ads
  1. You managed to conclude that there is some sinister and fraudulent plan for Barr to win the nomination out of that message? Wow.

    It looks like a GOTV plan to me. Something more LP candidates should spend time focusing on.

    I don’t even like Barr, but I’m not comfortable defining “ringer” as any delegate that plans to vote for someone that is not my preferred candidate.

  2. Speaking as a delegate to the LP convention who had to fight for a spot in the delegation, the idea that someone who isn’t a delegate can hop on a bus and expect to be named to a delegation on arrival (as the e-mail suggests) is deeply offensive to me.

  3. I’m with Chris on this one. Totally a GOTV plan. If they were //paying// people to go to the convention, that would constitute a form of “ballot-stuffing”.

    But as is clearly evidenced by the fact that they list the cost to attend, this is not going on. Ringer = no. GOTV = yes.

  4. the idea that someone who isn’t a delegate can hop on a bus and expect to be named to a delegation on arrival (as the e-mail suggests) is deeply offensive to me.

    That’s certainly not what I read in that email. I saw no such suggestion.

    The anti-Barr forces should focus on what actually makes Barr a poor nominee. Or, better yet, focus on what makes Ruwart or Kubby a good nominee. Pulling stuff out of thin air like this damages credibility.

  5. I hate to state the obvious… but the LP convention is not some open, nationwide primary. It is limited to those people who are chosen or designated as a delegate by their state affiliate. (Disclaimer: I may be murky on the exact rules for how delegates are selected in a state, but regardless it IS a finite number).

    Accordingly, Barr’s people can’t round up any “ringers” unless a state has open delegate spots still available, today… 48 hours before the general convention begins. True, there are still open spots available (Georgia, Barr’s own home state and strongest base, still has 5-10 vacancies). I say, if there’s not enough interest in the National Convention to even fill the damn delegation, then let it be filled by those with the interest. There’s nothing to stop Ruwart, Phillies, Root, Kubby, or anyone else from doing their own get-out-the-vote drive to fill vacant delegate seats… other than the possibility that fewer people would respond to such a call from those guys.

    They’re not padding the vote with new seats, they’re just filling the seats that were otherwise going vacant. If no other candidate can fill those seats, inspiring interest from people who would not have gone to the convention or been active in the Party otherwise, then that’s too bad for them. This is a VOTE… the whole idea is getting more people off their couch for you than the other person can get off the couch for them.

  6. [...] The Barr campaign is offering to bus people into Denver for the presidential vote. The chartered bus full of Barr backers will then immediately turn around and leave — “[n]o hotel fees or convention ‘extras’ needed!” Last Free Voice broke this story. [...]

  7. Timothy J. Maguire, the writer of that message, is NOT registered as a delegate according to my sources.

    Clearly, non-delegates are indeed going there on Barr’s behalf, expecting to be named as delegates on the spot just so they can vote for Bob Barr.

  8. If someone is seated as a delegate without the consent of their state affiliate, when that that state already has a full delegation, then this is a legitimate outrage.

    OTHERWISE, it’s a lot of hot air and smokescreens from people who hate Barr, and worry that their own candidate(s) of choice don’t have the genuine support to beat him.

  9. Mr. Perkins:

    Our concerns are not unwarranted, considering the ethical lapses that have punctuated activities around this campaign so far. To argue otherwise is to argue that ethics don’t matter.

  10. No… to argue otherwise is to argue that something isn’t unethical until it actually happens.

    If the LP seats delegates who are not entitled to be delegates, then you’ll have a legitimate beef (and it will be with the LP itself rather than Barr). Until then, it’s fine and proper to raise awareness and all… but nothing “unethical” has occurred here, and it hurts the anti-Barr crowd’s credibility to “stretch” stories too far prematurely.

  11. There are three possibilities here:

    First, that most or all of the people on that bus have already been selected as delegates but couldn’t set aside the whole convention period to go to Denver and do things other than support a presidential candidate.

    Second, that most or all of the people on that bus have not been selected as delegates, but are coming under some pre-existing arrangement to fill empty seats, with the foreknowledge and cooperation of one or more state parties.

    Third, that most or all of the people on that bus have not been selected as delegates but are coming in the hope of finding and procuring available delegate slots.

    If the first, they’re golden.

    If the second or third, then stand by for a credentials fight.

  12. Ian, your message got caught in the spam filter for some strange reason. Obviously, I put it right through as soon as I saw it. Sorry for the inconvenience.

  13. No… to argue otherwise is to argue that something isn’t unethical until it actually happens.

    You wouldn’t characterize the TPW/Vigurie/Cory developments of the last few days, replete with a lack of informed participants and a “surprise!” development, as a lack of ethical conduct?

    If so, I can understand why you wouldn’t be concerned. Those of us who are anal on ethics, however, are concerned. And rightly so, in my view.

    If the second or third, then stand by for a credentials fight.

    Pretty much. Ironically, if they’re not seated and Barr’s candidacy is unsuccessful as a result, his supporters will be almost certain to complain about “being excluded.”

  14. You wouldn’t characterize the TPW/Vigurie/Cory developments of the last few days, replete with a lack of informed participants and a “surprise!” development, as a lack of ethical conduct?

    So you’re saying the private sale of privately owned property is unethical unless you get to hear about it before hand?

    It is unethical for the former Executive Director of the LP to get another job?

    It is unethical for someone to buy property and then use that property to further their goals?

    It is unethical for a volunteer to organize a group of like-minded individuals to show up and support the candidate of their choosing, whether as a delegate or as a cheerleader?

    Those of us who are anal on ethics, however, are concerned. And rightly so, in my view.

    So I am an unethical if I answer the questions I posed above different than you do?

    If the second or third, then stand by for a credentials fight.

    I remember reading about how Starchild’s credentials were challenged a few years ago. He just showed up and attempted to be seated as a delegate. Apparently some in the “suit and tie” crowd felt he shouldn’t be allowed to just waltz in. Some “radicals” gnashed teeth on that one for a while. Funny how things change.

  15. BTW I am here in georgia and gasp I rented a bus also. It will be full of people. I have a master plan hahahahahahah i am going to take over the world hahahahahah.
    Oh yeah maybe I should not invite anyone who wanted to ride on my Barr bus like i did .
    BTW I am picking up Tom Knapp and one one other person from St Lois. who are not die hard Barr people.
    Also dont whine if your candidate can not fill up buses full of Libertarians. This is why some people are excited about Barr because he is getting the people out .

  16. I remember reading about how Starchild’s credentials were challenged a few years ago. He just showed up and attempted to be seated as a delegate. Apparently some in the “suit and tie” crowd felt he shouldn’t be allowed to just waltz in. Some “radicals” gnashed teeth on that one for a while. Funny how things change.

    At the end of the day, pretty much ALL politics is similar in spirit to professional wrestling.

    Wrestlers use the term “kayfabe” to describe conduct or speech that is done in-character, or as part of a storyline, rather than reality. Politics, at its core, is a matter of tribalism… of identity. We pick a side, adopt it as part of our personal identity in the world… and defend the tribe against other tribes. We criticize other tribes when they do things that we ourselves just defended, and we defend our tribes for doing things that that we just criticized about others. However, we overlay on top of this a layer of “kayfabe”… which is made up of all the specific issues and principles that we pretend to be fighting over.

    Maybe I’m exaggerating somewhat. That IS a pretty cynical outlook. Regardless, Chris is dead-on… no matter how “principled” people are in any particular aspect, whether or not they approve of a given behavior has a lot to do with which side is involved.

  17. Steve,

    Obviously, factions and campaigns are going to use all the tools at their disposal, including convention packing … if they can get away with it. And obviously there may be some hypocrisy on that point.

    My perception is that since the 2002 chair election (in which packing was an issue, real or imagined), most states, and the convention in general when it comes to a credentials fight, have tried to run a tighter ship and not just hand out delegate seats like candy. I think that’s a generally good approach, even, as much as it pains me, if it means that Starchild doesn’t get seated because of some argument.

    Of course, Starchild DID get seated in fact if not in form if I recall correctly: “Reformer” Brian Holtz objected so strongly to the outcome of that little set-to that he subsequently consulted Starchild and cast his own vote as Starchild’s proxy.

  18. So you’re saying the private sale of privately owned property is unethical unless you get to hear about it before hand?

    No, but it is unethical to not communicate with your partners, constituents and customers beforehand to let them know about your change in editorial policy.

    It is unethical for the former Executive Director of the LP to get another job?

    No, but Mr. Cory hasn’t exactly gotten just some other job, has he?

    It is unethical for someone to buy property and then use that property to further their goals?

    No, but it is unethical to claim that impartiality has been preserved and that a formerly independent site is identical, simply under new management, when it’s clearly not the case. That’s called lying.

    It is unethical for a volunteer to organize a group of like-minded individuals to show up and support the candidate of their choosing, whether as a delegate or as a cheerleader?

    No, but when it’s all done as a secret-secret sorta thing — and done in conjunction with all these other activities — it is done in a non-transparent, secret way. And yes, that’s unethical when it’s done as an effort to mislead.

  19. Is Richard Viguerie Trying to Buy the Libertarian Party?

    fairuse.100webcustomers.com/eg/nolan-vig.html

    (LFW won’t allow the full link)

  20. Richard Viguerie IS the anti-Christ, his angel is Bob Barr, and his sword is the Libertarian Party

    delawarelibertarian.blogspot.com/2008/05/richard-viguerie-is-anti-christ-his.html

  21. No, but it is unethical to not communicate with your partners, constituents and customers beforehand to let them know about your change in editorial policy.

    I wasn’t aware that Gordon had partners. I thought he was the sole owner. As far as constituents and customers goes, you’ve got to be kidding me, right? You are saying that every business owner has an ethical obligation to tell their customers that a sale of the business is in progress BEFORE the sale happens? So when Alcoa bought Reynolds Aluminum, they should have informed every person that buys aluminum foil about the sale before it happened, even if doing so would have had financial consequences that could effect the sale?

    This has to be one of the most asinine arguments I’ve heard in a while. You’re just pissed that a developer decided to build a house on your sandbox, and you’re coming up with some awfully twisted rationalizations to justify your anger.

    No, but Mr. Cory hasn’t exactly gotten just some other job, has he?

    Yes, he has. Just because he decided to work for someone you disagree with politically does not make it unethical.

    No, but it is unethical to claim that impartiality has been preserved and that a formerly independent site is identical, simply under new management, when it’s clearly not the case.

    I don’t see where the site has changed too much. However, I also never saw any claim of impartiality. Again, the developer has messed with the sandbox you used to play in but never owned. In this case the developer has merely changed the sandbox a little and has invited you to continue playing. You’re pissed because no one asked you what you wanted to do with the sandbox that you didn’t own.

    No, but when it’s all done as a secret-secret sorta thing — and done in conjunction with all these other activities — it is done in a non-transparent, secret way.

    All I hear is crying about how you weren’t told about a deal that didn’t involve you. It is RARE that a deal is made public before it reaches completion for many reasons.

    Stop wasting time crying about perceived injustices and focus on the reasons why Bob Barr is not the best choice for the nomination. His continued support of Republicans is one. His claim that a Barr campaign will help down-ticket Republicans is another. His branding of the LP as a more “conservative” party than the RP is an even bigger one.

  22. Hey, I’m the guy that sent the email.

    I am doing this on my own, not at the direction of the Bob Barr campaign. Please note that we are not bringing in “ringers.” I’m explaining to everyone that they do have to be a bona fide LP member to be certified as a delegate. Anyone not eligible to be a delegate by the time that the bus leaves will be encouraged to not waste their money.

    My motivation for doing this is nothing more than that I live in a state that will probably not fill all of their delegate spots because most people cannot afford a trip to Denver.

    If my email sounds suspicious it is simply because time was of the essence and it was written quickly.

    Please email me directly if you have any further concerns (maguire_tj@hotmail.com).

    P.S. As a long-time LP member, I really would have appreciated if you would have emailed me with any questions or concerns before posting this blog.

  23. … and to answer ElfNinosMom’s concerns, NO, I am not a delegate. I did not volunteer to be one as I could not afford the trip. However, when I realized that I would be sitting at home wishing that I could have afforded the trip, I figured that there were others like me and thought I would try to do something about that. If I can’t get my state to appoint me as a delegate in time for the convention, then I would not bother trying to go.

  24. Mr. Maguire you are HOPE’N to be a delegate and you just happen to get a busload full of Barr people who also are HOPE’N to be delegates. So you will ride a bus for multiple hours on a HOPE.

    With a possibility of 12 candidates and their supporters joining together to ban you and your greyhound partners from the floor, GOOD LUCK buddy !

    I know if I was there working for someone other than Barr you would have a tough job acquiring your planned goal.

    OH, well ! I guess Barr’s campaign song can be…

    THANK GOD and GREYHOUND he’s nominated …!

  25. Libertarian Party National Convention gossip roundup for Friday…

    Thanks to everyone who has linked here. If you’re sending your readers over here for political content, I suggest linking directly to my politics filter: http://www.jacquelinepassey.com/politics/index.html That will let them read the convention links …

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