Steve G.

Robert Milnes: Open Letter To Progressive & Libertarian Activists & Candidates 2

In Libertarian on July 26, 2008 at 7:14 pm

The following was written by Robert Milnes, and is reproduced with permission of the author

Here is what needs to be done asap. & all this needs to be done openly & highly publicized. The GP & LP and/or their executive tickets must communicate & meet about The Progressive Alliance Strategy.They should form a fusion ticket. This is a Green or Libertarian presidential candidate, the other party vice president. One man one woman. This ticket then becomes one that all progressives and libertarians can identify with in some way. The Libertarian should be attractive to Ron Paul activists. The Green should renounce socialism. Then a program with a website that functions to coordinate the expected progressive/libertarian plurality vote of 40% which is very competitive in a three way race, including one Green OR Libertarian on EVERY ballot. Also recommend the Alliance vote on ballot initiatives & issues. One reason people do not vote third party is they resist voting for a ticket that they think will certainly lose. Wasted vote phenomenon. If they think the fusion ticket just might win, they will support it. Another reason is they will be accustomed and highly pressured to choose between the democrat and republican. Lesser of two evils phenomenon. Again, if offered a viable third choice they will support it. This strategy should resolve the issues of whether or not an all Libertarian ticket could be elected (No), to pursue socialism (No) & whether or not election victory is possible (Yes) or that electing a Socialist e.g. Allende in Chile, or violent non-election revolution(Bolsheviks in Russia), or waiting & working for gradual social, cultural & political change are the only alternatives. (Not recommended). Publicize to Americans the Teddy Roosevelt progressive experience & the election of 1912. They will relate to & not fear that. Get going & good luck!

  1. The question on my mind is, why is Independent Political Report and Third Party Watch ignoring this story?

  2. Yeah, we’re missing the boat.

  3. Perhaps they have the antidote to whatever drugs are involved?

  4. Going to go gold mining like it’s 1849!

  5. The question is why is *anyone* paying attention to this story?

  6. Gene Trosper, you stepped in my trap. 😉

    Milnes was fun for a while, but . . .

  7. What’s the tally so far for people who actually want Milnes to be President? Has he broken a dozen yet?

    You really need to know when to give it up, dude.

    Nevermind the fact that your “Progressive Alliance” includes (or, more properly, aspires to include) people with diametrically opposed ideas about what “progress” is.

  8. It’s gone beyond the point of being interesting or even humorous and is now just pathetic. I think further coverage of Psycho Milnes will only prolong his mental sickness.

  9. Correction: It’s always been pathetic. But it has ceased being even remotely funny and is just annoying now. I don’t feel sorry for Milnes, I hate him for being such a festering pile of abortion-gone-wrong and discredit to the human race. Reading a post by Milnes makes me think less of myself.

  10. AC, how do you explain Teddy Roosevelt being a republican>progresive?

  11. Because there is no conflict between Republicanism and Progressivism, idiot. People have told you this, I don’t know, 10,000 times.

  12. G.E., you say everyone is a collectivist fascist.

  13. Yes, but that’s besides the current point.

    Where’s my new favorite graphic?

    Captain Milnes says: FULL STEAM AHEAD!!!

    Never get’s old.

  14. I sincerely do not understand why the Robert Milnes diatribe of the week gets posted here. ENM must be seeing something in it that I’m missing.

  15. Jim Davidson, yes, it might be interesting to have ENM comment on these comments.

  16. Milnes is our own Francis E. Dec. Long live the gnostic genus.

  17. Mike Theodore, slightly out of context. I said paraphrasing that I thought it might have been possible to beach or run aground the Titanic depending on how far the nearest land (Newfoundland?) or shallows/sandbars were. & whether the bilge pumps etc. would work better at full steam & repair crews & bucket brigades could have bought time etc. As opposed to coming to full stop & just slowly sink in 3 hours. 34’6″ draft + 60′ to deck means it could not sink at all in 94′ deep water i.e. it would sink up to the deck. The Outer Banks are that shallow in many spots. Sable Island. Distance to NYC @450 miles, Newfoundland @375. Max speed @25mph. 11 hours-3=8 hours.

  18. Robert, I can tell you the same thing’s over and over again. I don’t want to bother any of the people on this site with this argument. Find a Titanic forum or something, and we’ll drag it there.

  19. Mike Theodore, yes, tell me over & over about how the Titanic didn’t have bilge pumps & if it did they probably were hand cranking.

  20. & why are you so deferential to the others here & patronizing to me you 16 year old?

  21. Hand cranking and 16 year olds. That’s disgusting.

  22. Because you continuously fail to prove your side to any argument is right.

    I will not bother any of the people on this site with the contexts of the Titanic argument.

  23. But acceptable if safe, sane and consenual.

  24. No, eww is Jennifer Garner and Ben Affleck having another spawn which you would know if you spent less time with this libertarian crap and more time on Dlisted.

  25. Who and Who?

    On the latter note, you sound like 100% of all my friends.

  26. Correction above: Grand Banks not Outer Banks.

  27. Titanic had at least 8 huge bilge pumps. Steam powered.

  28. How can I prove the Titanic survival scenario? It’s not like I have a duplicate to run experiments on.

  29. & what if all below deck areas ordered sealed? At least some would hold air and/or trap air=some flotation.

  30. Right, I have counter arguments for all of those that I’d love to give you (really). But like I said, I’m not dragging this unrelated matter onto another political site.

  31. Wait, I just remembered this was the Milnes thread. Anything goes.

    I get it, they had pumps. They did diddly squat. Did you think Captain Smith didn’t have those things running?

    You can’t prove what can’t happen.

    Sealed? Crew members running around closing doors? Do you know how heavy water is? Heavy. Especially five compartments and rising. The water would simply push the doors down.

    Here’s where you don’t seem to understand. 5 compartments were filled immediately. 3-4, it could have stayed afloat until the nearest ship (4 hours away) got there. It might have even been able to move (very doubtful). Once the water filled those compartments, it began rising, and nothing could have been done.

  32. The CIA sunk the Titanic in order to undermine the Progressive Alliance.

  33. Hey, why not start the Progressive Alliance Party (PAP)?

    Let’s all unite behind PAP! Let’s advocate for PAP!

    I’m tired of all your anti-PAP smears!

  34. Damn, this thread has all teh laughs. And to think some people dissed it in the beginning.

  35. What I like about this is the analogy of the 2008 elections to the Titanic-for third parties & independents. Too bad it is not 2012. That makes activists & party members & candidates the crew. for libertarians, Barr Captain. Not me. The analogy is interesting but it has some nuances. for example, everybody knows from the beginning of the election cycle the LP will lose. But I noticed candidates dealt with that in different ways. Reality is the LP cannot win the presidency. Ever. Whereas at the launch of Titanic, nobody thought it would sink. Ever.

  36. As far as I am concerned, the Ron Paul candidacy proved The Libertarian Vote study Cato Institute. 13%. 20% when you include 7% crossover. That’s how I was able to predict he would not win even one primary. Even split among 10, the winner was always in the over 20% area. The nomination-impossible.

  37. This is why when Barr speaks of getting elected or if he were the president, it is absurd. But when elitist Obama acts like he already won, he is not too far from reality.

  38. Ha, Ha! The Titanic is going to sink & either McWar or Obamamaniac will win. Yet M.T. insists my speculations on possible Titanic survival scenario cannot be correct. OK Mike, if you insist. Sink, baby, sink.

  39. How hard is to understand, Robert?


  40. AC, even I am beyond that. I’m making plans to go gold mining soon. You see, the more doom & gloom the higher gold goes. I’m just having my fun at your expense here. What’s wrong with that? Ha, Ha!

  41. With regard to the RMS Titanic, I have seen a very detailed analysis which showed how all of the people on board could have survived. This analysis made no assumptions about better bilge pumping, nor about any extra time to get the ship anywhere. Here’s the overview, to the best of my recollection. You can use it to probably find the detailed report by the students who figured it all out.

    The RMS Titanic was made of iron and steel, so it is no surprise that it sank. However, it was decorated and furnished with wood and other material that would float. It was provided with fewer than enough life boats, but more than enough life boats and other material.

    So, here’s how it goes. You launch all the life boats with full loads of passengers, and circle them next to the ship. Use ropes to tie the life boats into a semi-circle with the Titanic as one side. Now take all the deck chairs, some of the wood decking, and any furnishings from below decks that you can haul up, and dump that floating stuff in the middle of the circle. Use additional lines to lash it all down. This steam ship was a huge vessel, it had a lot of rope aboard. You can find detailed inventories and manifests if you look for them. I gather this exercise was done using such lists.

    Now in addition to the life boats, you have a floating mat. You put mattresses and life vests and whatever else from the ship on top of that mat, and you load the remaining passengers and crew. Then you let go the lines to the Titanic, and row away. You don’t get very far, but nobody is in the water, so everyone should still be alive by the time the Carpathian and other vessels arrive. Apparently, from the exercise the students performed, you can do this activity in the time before the Titanic broke apart and sank, with time to spare. So, everyone would have lived.

    JP Morgan’s plan to send the opponents of the Federal Reserve and the income tax to the bottom of the Atlantic would have failed and there would be much rejoicing. Of course, the evidence that he ordered sub standard rivets and plating used in the construction has mostly been cleaned up.

    AC is right, nobody wants Robert to be president. On the plus side, very few people are reading what he writes anyway.

  42. The one whole in that theory was organization. The entire crew, and most of the passengers would have to stop panicking and run around inside the ship grabbing stuff.

  43. It isn’t a theory, it is more of an exercise. I’m not saying that the people on the ship would have saved themselves, I’m saying that given the exact amount of time and the exact quantity of stuff they could access, every single one of them could be alive today, based on an exercise some students conducted.

    Most of the accounts from survivors suggest that there was very little panic for most of the hours available. In fact, many of the life boats launched without a full set of passengers. Many people were not concerned because they maintained the fixed, false idea that the RMS Titanic could not and would not sink.

    This sort of exercise does not suggest a theory for what people would do. Most people, it seems, are most likely to do nothing. But it does seem to me to illustrate that human ingenuity is a very deep source of opportunity. People can figure their way out of all kinds of bad situations. That they do not is a shame, a pity, a source of the nearly endless sadness that I feel about human potential being wasted.

  44. Er, could have been alive for decades after the event. Probably not more than one or two alive today. Sorry, figure of speech got away from me.

  45. I heard this one theory when I was a little tyke. I haven’t heard it since. It says if First Officer Murdoch drove the Titanic straight into the iceberg, it would have instantly crushed about two of the compartments. That would have stopped the ship faster, and it could go in reverse then.
    With only two compartments crushed and filled, it could have stayed afloat and maybe even moved. Now of course, that wouldn’t have come to my mind if I was in charge of the ship. I’d do what he did, and turn like a mofo.

    BTW, these threads are great, any conversation goes. We should have a Milnes thread once a week.

  46. Very interesting scenarios.

  47. Now, in keeping with the analogy with the LP, the hitting or missing or deliberate direct impact into the iceberg would all involve the convention. Missing the iceberg would be having nominated a fusion ticket. The LP hit the iceberg. We are now in the situation of the officers realizing we are going to sink. i.e. lose the election. So I guess the helmsman direct hit the iceberg opportunity was lost. I & a few others are figuring alternatives to save the ship and/or the people. I believe we have all we need. Many are good at election laws & party bylaws etc. Most notably Winger & Knapp. Many are good at computers & software. Notably B.S. (you know who). Some are good at theory. Milnes & Milsted come to mind. Some are in a position to take ideas to the Lp-LNC. Ruwart, Keaton, Hogarth, etc. So, what to do? I’d say some sort of motion to the LNC is in order.

  48. LNC-We want to win. If things go as predicted, we will certainly lose. By a lot. A different strategy has been proposed. It has been suggested we could win with this strategy. We would like you to look into it.

  49. LNC, Milsted’s “upper left” party corresponds to Milnes’ “progressive/libertarian alliance” party. Milsted wants to start a new party. Milnes thinks that such a new party would be in direct competition with the LP & GP. If the LP & GP can work together, they could win without the forming of a new party. If they cannot or will not, then Milsted’s new party formation seems best. But that forfeits this election cycle.

  50. I have been asked what candidates I recommend for fusion ticket. Milnes/Kwiatkowski, Milnes/Ruwart, Gravel/Kwiatkowski, Gravel/Ruwart, Barr/Mckinney, McKinney/Barr, Barr/Clemente, McKinney/Root. The first four could be accomplished by the LP pursuant to bylaws without GP involvement. The second four would involve LP & GP cooperation. The first four reflect my observation of top two left libertarianism in the LP presidential candidates sufficient to get support from leftists. Greens & progressives & progressive democrats. + the top two women libertarians who are most favorable to Ron Paul supporters. I think Gravel would be agreeable to renouncing pursuing socialism. I know I would. Once a fusion ticket is decided on by the LNC & the Progressive/Libertarian Alliance Strategy agreed to be tried there should be a lot of msm publicity & a big bump in polling.

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