Steve G.

Gary Fincher’s Letter to LP Judicial Committee re Sean Haugh

In Libertarian on July 3, 2008 at 8:03 pm

The following is posted with the permission of the author, Gary Fincher. I have redacted phone numbers and street addresses, to protect privacy concerns; and changed email addresses so that they will not be picked up by spambots. Otherwise, I have made no alterations to the document as I received it.

Gary L. Fincher
P O Box [redacted]
Goshen, IN 46527
[telephone number redacted]

June 29, 2008

Dear [Judicial Committee member]

I’m writing this to you in your official capacity as member of the Libertarian Party judicial committee. I’m writing to call your attention to recent misconduct by our national political director, Sean Haugh, in hopes of some real action being taken against him.

This past Friday I was alerted to a very disturbing email (which I’ve copied and attached with this letter), written and sent out by Haugh to LP petition circulator/activist Mark Pickens. Make no mistake about it – this email was written in Haugh’s official capacity as Libertarian Party national political director.

In the email, Haugh cites a personal disdain for me as justification for promising to instruct LPMA officials to burn (Haugh uses the qualification “quite literally” for emphasis) my recently turned in 2,000 signatures (estimated ballpark 90% validity). I am a seasoned veteran libertarian activist/consultant/circulator (since 1991) and have never seen anything so unprofessional and reckless coming from someone who holds a national staff title. Here is one of our national staff members openly advocating a criminal act!

It is unclear from this email whether or not I should actually fear for my safety, or fear being a victim of violent vandalism from somebody, acting under the direction of our political director. However, I will be taking this matter to the police for investigation. Wording on the Massachusetts petition states: “Warning – criminal penalty for unlawfully signing, altering, defacing, mutilating, destroying or suppressing this petition; fine of up to $1,000 or imprisonment for up to one year.”

This threat is nonetheless real: a credible source just informed me that Haugh followed through with his threat and phoned LPMA ballot drive coordinator Carolyn McMahon (whose name is actually on the petition, as a presidential elector) and instructed her to not pay me and to burn “literally” any petitions she gets from me. I have a contract with the state party for payment so Haugh is acting illegally on a couple of different fronts.

In 1992, at the urging of then Libertarian Party national ballot access committee chairman Bill Redpath, I became involved too in assisting other third parties struggling to get on state ballots, and so these organizations became my clients for-hire. I worked throughout 2004 to get Nader on the ballot in several states, and received a glowing recommendation for my work from Nader’s campaign manager, Jason Kafoury. However, it was recently brought to my attention that Sean Haugh – again, acting in his official capacity as national LP political director – attempted to direct Kafoury and the Nader campaign to refuse to hire me, an attempt that ultimately failed. The point here is, the LP political director has no business interfering in contractual relations between a free-lance circulator and a client of a completely separate political organization. This is way out of line.

For that matter, what business does Haugh, at national, have interfering between a free-lance circulator and a state party affiliate in a mutually-satisfactory arrangement? Or, even for that matter, why should a political director be unilaterally “blacklisting” a perfectly good petition circulator who is prolific and does high-quality work for no legitimate reason other than he has a personal disdain for that circulator? Yet Haugh has done exactly this at least three times (known to me) in the weeks since the Denver convention alone!

In addition to his curious blacklisting of me right after the convention, Haugh also decreed that Andrew Jacobs, another longtime LP activist/circulator, who has done excellent work in multitude states with impeccably high validity was not to work on any petitions from now on. Then, of course, this email highlights Haugh’s penchant for unprofessionally flying off the handle to take punitive measures in a figurative “off with your head” gesture to Pickens, thereby blacklisting him. The irony is, Haugh’s guilt-by-assocation pretense to fire Pickens was not true: Pickens is currently in Colorado working on state ballot initiatives there, and I was turning in my signatures directly to LPMA chair George Phillies in Worcester, Mass. Pickens does not deserve to be blacklisted any more than I do.

I actually have a very long list of petition coordinators in and out of the party who not only would love to have my services on petition drives, but could vouch for not only my productivity but the high-quality of my work. One of these, of course, is the aforementioned Phillies, but I have others, and I will list them at the end of this letter.

Haugh, on the other hand, apparently has a long track record of disparaging good activists for highly suspect reasons at best, and then going another length to attempt to ensure that they suffer further, as evidenced by Haugh’s recent overt support for one of LP Susan Hogarth’s Republican congressional opponents in N.C., Haugh’s public smearing of LP candidate Kevin Barrett of WI, and Haugh’s hand in the infamous anti-Ruwart press release. As for that press release, I have also included documentation that Haugh was probably the principal crafter of that press release; if Shane Cory resigned over that release, why hasn’t Haugh also?

Haugh rarely confronts directly his targets, and to be sure, won’t talk directly to me (I asked him face to face in Denver to sit down like gentlemen and discuss his points of contention with me but he flatly refused). But I’ve heard through the grapevine from his talking to others that he is citing three things about me, all of which are either false, ridiculous or flimsy.

One, he is citing a 10-year-old controversy from N.M. over a voter registration drive I was part of. While this controversy is over and behind me, it is sure to get resurrected upon Haugh’s confronting, so a very brief sympopsis is in order.

In that N.M. VR drive, my production of LP voter regs (with my late wife Karen) was so high that the elections bureau started leaking rumors to the effect that so many people could not possibly be registering Libertarian, but “had to” have been tricked into doing so. The tricking allegations were completely false – LPNM coordinator Ron Bjornstad secretly watched us work and concluded no one was tricked, and an investigator hired by LPNM interviewed Bernalillo County Elections Director Robert Lucero, who said that he visited our registration booth posing as a new registrant and wasn’t tricked – but I did make a strategic blunder on that drive regarding SSNs on the forms, a mistake I called attention to with then-national director Steve Dasbach. Steve instructed me to make amends for my error which entailed me to undergo a one-year probation period after which time I would be able to get paid the balance for my N.M. work, then resume working on future drives for the party. The year was up in 2001 and while I worked again for the party in 2004, I didn’t receive my pay as promised…until I wrote a letter to national chair Bill Redpath, briefing him on the entire story, start to finish. Redpath responded to my letter by instructing the national office in April 2007 to finally pay me the balance (without interest) for my 1999 NM work. This was done after ballot access expert Richard Winger reminded Redpath that all my NM voter regs ended up counting despite the controversy, and also that good circulators who are also solid libertarians do not grow on trees and should be treated right. (In fact, Richard is the one who provided me with the list of judicial committee members I am using for this letter, and the one who encouraged me to write to you guys in the first place, over Haugh’s obstructing me from working on LP petition drives.)

To top matters off regarding NM, I talked to Steve Dasbach at the Denver convention, who told me that the NM ordeal is over and done, and should be behind us. Steve, who was national director at the time of NM, told me he even informed Haugh of this. Yet Haugh still continues to make special phone calls to state party officials telling them to interfere with my work and citing NM as one of the justifications (Carolyn McMahon, for one). I find this outrageous.

Two, Haugh is citing an event from last summer in N.C. when I was there teaming up with another circulator who was contracting with the LPNC for signatures. We were circulating the LPNC petition for pay, but carried voter registrations only as a courtesy to those voters who weren’t already registered, who could then sign the petition. One woman filled out a registration form with me and signed the petition but during the course of the interchange asked me where she would actually go vote. I told her that I didn’t know but that she’d probably get something in the mail. Realizing that I may have given her incorrect information (I had received voter cards in the mail that didn’t include actual voting location), I called her later to offer to look up that information for her, if she wished. She actually said that she would appreciate that, and gave me her email address for me to email her that information. Even though all the information on a voter registration form is public information, including the phone number I used to call her, she nevertheless called up the elections office, as well as the Wal Mart location where she’d registered with me, that next day to complain that I had her “private” information! This turned into a brouhaha that shouldn’t have, as this voter expected the Buncombe Co. elections office to actually already know everyone out there collecting voter registrations, which is not the case. Upon learning that I was an “unknown” source to the County, she proceeded with her crusade to stop me from working on registrations. Apparently this even led to Wal Mart’s calling the police, who came out and investigated me and then cleared me. Please note that I was cleared by the police.

Sean Haugh’s retelling of the story, however, contains the embellishment that I “sexually harassed” the woman, something that is not even remotely true. Incredibly, Haugh’s rise from NC to national has compounded this misunderstanding and allowed it to reach a status that it never should have enjoyed. I did absolutely nothing wrong in that episode, let alone something that should merit my not being allowed to work on petition signatures or call my work into question.

And finally, Haugh is bothered by “waves” I’ve created within the party over a drive I worked on in Nebraska in 2006 where fundraiser Scott Kohlhaas embezzled funds that were supposed to go to paid circulators. Circulators who go for months without receiving thousands of dollars in pay tend to complain, as was the case with me (and Andrew Jacobs). In short, after six months of not receiving my pay for signatures, I complained loudly and often, and made no uncertain terms of my dissatisfaction with the situation and with Kohlhaas. It actually took almost a year for us to start to get any appeasement at all on that NE pay situation but the multitude complaints and “rocking the boat” left me looking somewhat of a “bad guy” in Haugh’s eyes. Hence, the personal disdain.

I have shared the information of Haugh’s criminal threats with my Nader contact in the state, and he has said that it is very “disturbing”, and agreed that it is unprofessional and not acceptable.

Getting to the bottom line, I am writing to request that Sean Haugh be removed or asked to resign his national staff, and be eligible for no other national staff position. The open advocacy of a criminal act should not be tolerated, I understand there are others calling for his removal and he has a long list of creating turmoil. My belief is that things will only go from bad to worse as long as he’s in that position.

The other thing I’m requesting is that I be reinstated as a potential circulator/contractor for the party, at all levels. A consultation with the very respected Richard Winger is really all that is necessary to confirm that this should happen, I think. But I am also going the extra mile to provide you with a list of other references.

I have never forged signatures, cheated or turned in bad work in my long career. I have always had some of the highest validity in the business, and my volume has often been spoken highly of. For instance, I just turned in 2,000 LP petitions in a period of a week and a half. During that same period, Freedom Petition Management, who has a crew of 30 circulators, turned in 4,000 LP petitions. A simple calculation of the math should say something about my value as a productive circulator.

I appreciate your time and attention in reading this letter, and I thank you in advance for your swift and thoughtful action.

Sincerely,

Gary L. Fincher

Cc: all other members of judicial committee

Gary Fincher references:

Richard Winger
Libertarian Party
San Francisco, CA
[phone number redacted]
richardwinger at yahoo.com

George Phillies
Libertarian Party
Worcester, MA
[phone number redacted]
phillies at 4liberty.net

Ron Bjornstad
Libertarian Party
Rio Rancho, NM
[phone number redacted]
rbjornstad at earthlink.net

Carla Howell
Libertarian Party
Wayland, MA
[phone number redacted]

Paul Jacob
Washington, DC
[phone number redacted]

Allison Potter
Constitution Party Ballot Access Coordinator
Fairfax, Virginia
[phone number redacted]

Mark Swaney
Green Party
Fayetteville, AR
[phone number redacted]

Mark Jenkins
Green Party
Little Rock, AR
[phone number redacted]

Wes Benedict
Libertarian Party
Austin, TX
[phone number redacted]

Roland Reimers
Libertarian Party
Grand Forks, ND
[phone number redacted]

Mark Cenci
Libertarian Party
Portland, ME
[phone number redacted]

Mike Johnston
Libertarian Party
Columbus, OH
[phone number redacted]

Chris Costello
Libertarian Party
Omaha, NE
[phone number redacted]

Eileen Ray
Sacramento, CA
[phone number redacted]

John Michael
Auburn, ME
[phone number redacted]

Ronn Cook
Houston, TX
[phone number redacted]

Cal Zastrow
Michigan
[phone number redacted]

Jason Kafoury
Nader Campaign
Washington, DC
[phone number redacted]

Robert Lynch
Richmond, VA
[phone number redacted]

David Euchner
Tucson, AZ
[phone number redacted]

Alexis Thompson
Tucson, AZ
[phone number redacted]

Dennis Corrigan
Former Canada LP Leader

Nick Dunbar
Former LP Director

  1. Boy, this is a mouthful. I hope the LPJC acts quickly and decisively.

  2. FYI

    the possibly related post doesn’t seem to be related.

  3. I find it to be distrubing that Sean Haugh has yet to be fired.

  4. Hiya, Galileo. The “possibly related” posts are automatically generated by WordPress, not us. We don’t have anything to do with that function, and most times they aren’t really related to what we’re discussing on LFV.

    It’s a pretty new thing, they’re still experimenting with it from what I understand. We can opt out, but if we opt out we won’t be listed on other wordpress blogs as “possibly related”, and I thought staying in might be a good way to spread libertarian thought to the uninitiated.

    We’ll give them a little time, to see if it’s worth it to participate or whether we should opt out. 🙂

  5. I filed a formal police report with the Dartmouth, Massachusetts police today.

    Now, prosecution is out of my hands and in the hands of Massachusetts authorities on two levels, state and local.

    We don’t have competing court systems yet, so calm down on the ideological theorizing, fellow purists.

    Anyway, any Massachusetts candidate, member or donor who’s mad as hell at having a political director at national prone to such careless acts, please feel free to flood the following prosecutorial entities with calls, prodding for charges to be made:

    Michelle Tassinari,
    Secretary of the Commonwealth/Elections Division
    617 727 2828
    michelle.tassinari@sec.state.ma.us

    Dartmouth Police Department
    Detective Department
    508 910 1775

  6. Note:

    Gary’s letter to the Judicial committee members, does nothing officially, as judicial committee does not have the authority to fire or discipline employees. That is the domain of the LNC.

    The powers granted to the judicial committee are laid out in the bylaws (available at http://www.lp.org/files/pdfs/bylaws-2008.pdf ), Article 9.

  7. The Judicial Committee doesn’t take cases over the transom, nor is reviewing the actions of LPHQ staff in its purview.

    It reviews actions of the LNC under certain specific conditions (appeal by percentage of the membership, or by LNC members or presidential/VP candidates who’ve been suspended). It also reviews convention actions alleged to violate the Statement of Principles.

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  8. Tom,

    What would be the appropriate body for Gary to complain to? If it’s the LNC, would the judicial committee be the next step (to review actions of the LNC) if the LNC does not deal with it to Gary’s satisfaction?

  9. Paulie,

    LPHQ staff answers to the executive director. The executive director answers to the chair. The chair answers to the LNC. The LNC answers to itself except for every two years (elections) or when it does something that is appealed by x% of the membership.

    If in Mr. Fincher’s opinion the political director, executive director and chair have all failed to respond appropriately to his concerns, then the next avenue would be to lobby the LNC for satisfactory action. The only way it gets to the Judicial Committee is if the LNC actually does something, and if Mr. Fincher can enroll x% of the membership to appeal whatever the LNC did (if it’s something he wants to appeal).

    For example, Mr. Fincher could lobby the LNC to direct the chair to dismiss Mr. Haugh for some stated cause. I suspect he might be able to find a sponsor for such a motion, but it might be difficult for that LNC member to even get the motion to the floor (does it have to be on the agenda? What if the chair rules it out of order? etc.), and it’s unlikely to pass (the LNC traditionally gives the chair a great deal of latitude as CEO, and the chair traditionally gives the executive director similar latitude as COO).

    Regards,
    Tom Knapp

  10. Since I got paid, I’m not the chief complainant in this matter: the LPMA is, e.g., their members, donors and candidates, as well as Chris Bennett (and quite probably Bob Barr and Wayne Root). They ended up being the more fundamental target of Sean’s fraud. Though the LPMA and possibly the Barr/Root campaign, likely has an excellent civil case against Haugh and/or the political director’s position (see my 2nd letter to judicial committee which, I think, is about to be posted), I believe I do too, given the cumulative of this and other actions Haugh has taken (such as falsely besmirching my character to Nader).

    Something HAS to be done; I don’t see any way this can be swept under the rug. It’s way too insidious in nature.

  11. Keep in mind that Bill Redpath has thus far failed to respond to me, either by phone or email, and I have directly solicited his input.

    Saying nothing about this matter could place them in legal jeopardy too, I’m just guessing.

    I have done more than my share of seeing that this matter gets the proper due process, and thanks also goes out to those thoughtful libertarians who have cared about getting some accountability, including Paulie, Andy, George, Carolyn, Elfnino’s Mom and scores of libertarians that have been weighing in on message boards and emails to me.

  12. Gosh, how shocking to discover that there is an asshole working at LPHQ. Even more shocking, the LNC doesn’t seem to give a damn.

    The only solution is to re-elect the LNC so they can hire disgruntled Republicans and socially retarded reformers to replace the old ones at LPHQ.

  13. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Who’s hiding relevant information? Who has the facts referenced in this case? The whole world doesn’t need to know, but it sounds like Gary has the resources to force a public answer if justice isn’t offered him. His suggestions don’t sound unreasonable, if his allegations are correct. The attempted destruction of his reputation and signatures is a serious business, since that’s how he makes his living, and his living is putting my party on the ballot. Of course, the same is true for Haugh… Who’s got the truth? If this thing is dealt with quickly and fairly it’ll stink for a short time, but at least it won’t stink and linger…

  14. “The attempted destruction of his reputation and signatures is a serious business, since that’s how he makes his living, and his living is putting my party on the ballot.”

    You just hit the nail on the head! Sean Haugh is fucking with Gary’s (as well as other Libertarian petitioners) livelihood, and he is also besmirching Gary’s character.

    In addition to this, Sean Haugh’s actions are also HARMING ballot access efforts all over the country. For instance, Haugh hired a mercenary crew in Illinois that turned in about 5,500 signatures and only 1,500 of them turned out to be valid, however, LP National paid them around $10,000 BEFORE it was found out that their validity was that poor. It was only thanks to the diligence of Chris Bennett of the Illinois LP that this bad validity (which included out right forged signatures) was found out and this crew was fired. If it had been left up to Haugh, this crew would have continued working and they would have bilked LP donors out of THOUSANDS more dollars. Keep in mind that Haugh hired this mercenary crew while at the same time blackballing some proven, long time Libertarian petitioners like Gary.

    “Of course, the same is true for Haugh…”

    Gary did not instigate this problem with Sean Haugh. Sean Haugh was the one who instigated the problem. I did not instigate a problem with Sean Haugh. He instigated a problem with me.

    Believe me, Gary and I have got better things to do than deal with this bullshit. We are only dealing with it out of necessity, and it is not just for us, it is for the good of the party.

  15. The only way it gets to the Judicial Committee is if the LNC actually does something, and if Mr. Fincher can enroll x% of the membership to appeal whatever the LNC did (if it’s something he wants to appeal).

    If the LNC does nothing, can its failure to act be appealed as well?

  16. While there appears to be irregularities with Sean’s actions there are some things in Gary Fincher’s past that cast a shadow on his petitioning activities.

    Regards Sean’s general, I am not posting detail specific, reference to Fincher not obeying the law.

    For this I quote one of part of one of Fincher’s own postings posted June 6, 2008.


    Wow, I am shocked. I knew both Jimmy & Mary Anne very well, albeit I haven’t spoken to either of them since the early 90s.

    I actually stayed in their basement bedroom for many months while helping to circulate Jimmy’s petition to roll back the Birmingham city sales tax. This was when Jimmy was chairman of the Alabama LP.

    Mary Anne actually helped me and did a great service to me (which not many people would do) – she covered for me by sending in my mandatory probation mailers (I was serving bogus probation as a political prisoner after being railroaded into a plea bargain after being arrested for collecting signatures for the LP pres. ticket) from Birmingham, so they would have a Birmingham postmark, enabling me to return to my regular life in Maine after the ‘92 presidential election. It was her idea; she actually risked legal hot water herself for this, and I was forced to place great trust in her.

    Mary Anne followed through (it entailed mailing a form to me, my mailing it back to her, and her mailing to the Birmingham probation departmetn, 3 consecutirve motnhs).”

    Regardless of what one thinks of the validly of Fincher’s conviction / probation a person who intentionally disobeys laws / rules they do not wish to comply with cannot be considered trustworthy.

  17. Kevin,

    That case was over Gary being arrested for petitioning in front of a post office at a time when the post office had regulations allowing petitioning. There are times when petitioners get arrested despite such regulations, because many local police don’t know or care about things like USPS regulations or court rulings about where petitioning activity is allowed.

    I would not characterize Gary in this matter to be a “person who intentionally disobeys laws / rules they do not wish to comply with.”

  18. Paul,

    If Fincher breaks a law or rule, which by his own words he did, it is not surprising that you think it is okay if he supports your position. Unfortunately this leaves it to his judgment, not yours, and leaves him open to disobey a rule or law that you agree with.

    You have failed to consider, at least I hope so, that a person working on your behalf is subject to third party scrutiny. Such a person, in this case a petitioner, should be above suspicion. Fincher’s actions in this one case he admits to revokes his position of being above suspicion.

    Further Fincher agreed to a plea bargain which meant he gave his word to obey the terms of the agreement. Here he admits to breaking his word.

    As a petition gatherer for the LP Fincher’s past action cast doubts on his petition signatures. It would be wise to not hire such a person.

    Kevin O’Connell

  19. If Fincher breaks a law or rule, which by his own words he did,

    No, by his own words he was obeying the law and was arrested anyway. That happens quite a bit to petitioners, among other people.

    Further Fincher agreed to a plea bargain which meant he gave his word to obey the terms of the agreement. Here he admits to breaking his word.

    True, but his word was given under duress. His alternative was a lengthy term of confinement for what, as far as I can tell, was an outrageously unjust arrest.

    I don’t remember whether he would have been let out of jail if he did not make that deal. At best, he would have been confined to one state, which means loss of employment in our business.

    Furthermore, even if Gary has misrepresented the nature of his arrest in the above matter to me, what would an arrest for trespassing or some such thing in the early 1990s have to do with whether he should circulate petitions in 2008?

  20. If Fincher breaks a law or rule, which by his own words he did,

    No, by his own words he was obeying the law and was arrested anyway. That happens quite a bit to petitioners, among other people.

    Further Fincher agreed to a plea bargain which meant he gave his word to obey the terms of the agreement. Here he admits to breaking his word.

    True, but his word was given under duress. His alternative was a lengthy term of confinement for what, as far as I can tell, was an outrageously unjust arrest.
    =====================
    So he says, but by his own words then he did it. How can you tell when he is lying? Was he lyng then or is he lieing to you now?

    ======================================

    I don’t remember whether he would have been let out of jail if he did not make that deal. At best, he would have been confined to one state, which means loss of employment in our business.

    Furthermore, even if Gary has misrepresented the nature of his arrest in the above matter to me, what would an arrest for trespassing or some such thing in the early 1990s have to do with whether he should circulate petitions in 2008?
    ==========================
    You ask “some such thing in the early 1990s have to do with whether he should circulate petitions in 2008?”
    Good question and goes to the ehart of the matter.

    In the early 1990s he, with LP Party Members, conspired to and did file false probation reports contrary to his agreement with the state. This means his word was no good then and brings the question of his word being good today.

    You imply that he was justified because the terms of his probation required him to stay in Alabama and he could make more money working elsewhere. It is a false justification to say he could not honor his word just because he could make more money by doing so. This means the man is selfish and puts others beneath his own needs by breaking their agreements.

    As for today, wasn’t Fishner was part of the 2000 New Mexico petition mess. Here there were people who complained of the petition they signed being misrepresented to them. Also I recall that many names were found to be false.

    Fishner bears close scrutiny before giving him support.

  21. Gary’s arrest in Florida for gathering signatures for Libertarian Party ballot access was completely bogus. Anyone who sites this against Gary is NOT a real Libertarian.

    “As for today, wasn’t Fishner was part of the 2000 New Mexico petition mess. Here there were people who complained of the petition they signed being misrepresented to them. Also I recall that many names were found to be false.”

    Wow, you don’t have your facts straight. The controversy in question occurred in 1999 and it was a voter registration drive. Fincher was accused, but he was not actually guilty of anything. Ballot access expert Richard Winger back him up, as did Ron Bjornstad of the New Mexico LP (who actually coverty watched him work), as did Robert Lucero of the Bernalillo County Elections Office (who said that Fincher was actually too insistent about people registering Libertarian. Bill Redpath paid Fincher the ramained of what he was owed for his New Mexico work years later.

    “Fincher bears close scrutiny before giving him support.”

    I have scrutinized Fincher more than anyone here and I support him 100%.

  22. “As a petition gatherer for the LP Fincher’s past action cast doubts on his petition signatures. It would be wise to not hire such a person.

    Kevin O’Connell”

    Gary Fincher is a petitioning legend. I’ve been in the Libertarian Party for 12 years and I’ve been a petitioner for 8 years and I’ve worked in 24 states and I’ve never heard of this Kevin O’Connell guy.

    Kevin obviously doesn’t know what in the hell he is talking about. Gary does an excellent job. He just pulled in 2,000 good validity petition signatures for LP ballot access in Massachusetts in 10 days. Gary got a good chuck of the signatures that got the LP back on the ballot in North Dakota and Nebraska for this election cycle. Gary collected a large number of signatures for Carla Howell’s End the Massachusetts State Income Tax initiative as well as an initiative to Reduce Penalties on Marijuana Pocession back in September-November of last year.

    I have worked with Gary on multiple occassions and he’s always done a great job.

  23. Andy,

    That Fincher is a “petitioning legend” and has gathered 2,000 petition signatures in 10 days is not an issue, only his honesty is the issue.

    I was not aware of his Florida arrest and had made no reference to this, only you did.

    I wrote of his arrest in Alabama, his guilty plea which resulted in probation and quoted his confession that he conspired with LP members to violate the terms of the probation. That he violated the terms of his probation with the help of LP members is in itself a shadow on his character.

    Kevin O’Connell

  24. To all,

    Gary and Karen Fincher were at the center of the New Mexico petition drive disaster of 2000.

    The Santa Fe New Mexican February 12, 2000
    Section: Local
    Page: B-1

    Libertarians lose ballot bid in court – Bruce Ross

    While nobody has been charged with a crime, Bernalillo County Clerk Judy Woodward found in December — and a private investigator later hired by the Libertarians agreed — that hundreds of voters in the Albuquerque area had been misled into changing their party affiliation.

    The national party suspended Gary and Karen Fincher , who were conducting the registration drive, and they have left the state. Another party activist picked up the push in Las Cruces, Silver City and Portales, and the Libertarians say he was especially careful to explain to voters that they would be changing their party.

    State Elections Director Denise Lamb, however, said problems continued. Many voters contacted have changed their party registration back, and Lamb maintains that throughout the drive, voters “were deceived and lied to and told to leave the party identification blank.”

    Additionally….

    “The Finchers were arrested Nov. 5, 1998, while trying to vote at Sweeney Elementary School after they refused requests by poll workers to cover Gary Fincher’s Libertarian T-shirt. State law bars display of signs and distribution of campaign literature within 100 feet of any polling place. The couple were arrested by Santa Fe County deputies and booked into the county jail.

    Karen Fincher was convicted Dec. 14, 1999, in Magistrate Court of electioneering too close to a polling place, disorderly conduct and resisting an officer, and ordered to pay $713 in fines and court costs. She has appealed the case to State District Court.

    Gary Fincher was convicted May 21, also in Magistrate Court, of electioneering to close to a polling place, and ordered to pay a $51 fine. He failed to pay, and Judge Bill Dimas issued a bench warrant Oct. 18 for his arrest.”

    Gary Fincher knows well what he cannot do at polling places and while petitioning and has a long history of intentionally violating these laws and regulations.

    It was also determined that while petitioning in New Mexico Fincher was registered to vote there while living elsewhere.

    Both Gary and Karen, Karen is now deceased and cannot comment, fled New Mexico and refused to return to answer the questions about what they did with those petitions.

    In addition those petions in New Mexico had forged Social Security numbers which took the hand of the petitioner.

    It would be foolish to hire a petitioner who has a confirmed record of fraudulent petitioning. In this case the Libertarian Party made the confirmation themselves by hiring a private investigator. The result of Fincher’s action was the New Mexico LP lost it’s petition drive and it’s was unable to obtain ballot access.

  25. I was not aware of his Florida arrest and had made no reference to this, only you did.

    I wrote of his arrest in Alabama

    The arrest was in Florida. The probation was in Alabama.

    That he violated the terms of his probation with the help of LP members is in itself a shadow on his character.

    The terms of the probation were the fruit of a poison tree (an unjust arrest) made under duress.

    While nobody has been charged with a crime, Bernalillo County Clerk Judy Woodward found in December — and a private investigator later hired by the Libertarians agreed — that hundreds of voters in the Albuquerque area had been misled into changing their party affiliation.

    If there had been a crime, someone would have been charged with it. The NM regime is very prone to press charges – for instance, around that same time Gary and Karen were arrested for wearing Libertarian clothing when they attempted to vote. Although Karen complied with the order to remove the clothing items, she was convicted anyway. Had she not died in the meantime, she would have done a term in the state penitentiary – a year, if I remember correctly.

    According to Gary, the private detective hired by the Libertarians intimidated witnesses into saying they had been tricked.


    The national party suspended Gary and Karen Fincher , who were conducting the registration drive, and they have left the state. Another party activist picked up the push in Las Cruces, Silver City and Portales, and the Libertarians say he was especially careful to explain to voters that they would be changing their party.

    Yeah, the Libertarians said that.


    State Elections Director Denise Lamb, however, said problems continued. Many voters contacted have changed their party registration back, and Lamb maintains that throughout the drive, voters “were deceived and lied to and told to leave the party identification blank.”

    What makes Lamb so sure anyone was told to leave the party field blank?
    State LP official Ron Bjornstad watched the Finchers work before he introduced himself, and then worked with them, and saw no such activity taking place.

    It was also determined that while petitioning in New Mexico Fincher was registered to vote there while living elsewhere.

    Since he was living in New Mexico for an extended period of time, and did not own a home or rent an apartment anywhere else at the time, “living elsewhere” is highly dubious.

    Gary Fincher knows well what he cannot do at polling places

    Strangely enough, Gary says that when he told then NM Governor (and former LP member) Gary Johnson about the T-shirt arrest, Johnson said he has worn clothing identifying candidates or parties when he went to vote in the past, and would be issuing a pardon. However, Johnson failed to follow through on his promise.

    The result of Fincher’s action was the New Mexico LP lost it’s petition drive and it’s was unable to obtain ballot access.

    According to Richard Winger of Ballot Access News, the registrations counted, and as a result LP National Chair Bill Redpath paid Gary for those registrations in 2007.

    Both Gary and Karen, Karen is now deceased and cannot comment, fled New Mexico and refused to return to answer the questions about what they did with those petitions.

    In other words, they had to go elsewhere to get another job, and were not able to return in time?

  26. pauliecannoli Says:
    July 7, 2008 at 2:25 pm
    I was not aware of his Florida arrest and had made no reference to this, only you did.
    I wrote of his arrest in Alabama
    The arrest was in Florida. The probation was in Alabama.
    That he violated the terms of his probation with the help of LP members is in itself a shadow on his character.
    The terms of the probation were the fruit of a poison tree (an unjust arrest) made under duress.
    =========================
    The “fruit of a poisoned tree” is a claim, not a fact. Since he agreed to the terms he was bound by the plea bargain. There is no reason to believe him and every reason not too.
    ====================================

    While nobody has been charged with a crime, Bernalillo County Clerk Judy Woodward found in December — and a private investigator later hired by the Libertarians agreed — that hundreds of voters in the Albuquerque area had been misled into changing their party affiliation.
    If there had been a crime, someone would have been charged with it. The NM regime is very prone to press charges

    =======================================
    Actually Prosecutors offices have enough to do that they often do not follow up charges with prosecution , especially in cases where a resolution is reached. The LP of New Mexico took responsibility for the misdeeds of people in their employed. Additionally they were too busy to pursue the matter and press the government to prosecute. They also had enough bad press from Fincher’s actions, it was to their best interest to keep it quiet and hope for people to forget about this.
    =========================================

    – for instance, around that same time Gary and Karen were arrested for wearing Libertarian clothing when they attempted to vote. Although Karen complied with the order to remove the clothing items, she was convicted anyway. Had she not died in the meantime, she would have done a term in the state penitentiary – a year, if I remember correctly.
    ====================
    Actually I understand Karen did remove here the LP items, but then got arrested and convicted for “electioneering too close to a polling place, disorderly conduct and resisting an officer, and ordered to pay $713 in fines and court costs” which I quote from the newspaper article in an above post. It seems she started to comply but got involved further when Gary did not comply with orders. Looks like since she attempted to interfere with Gary complying with the orders then she supported Gary’s effort, I believe this is how she got the “electioneering too close to a polling place” conviction.
    ====================================

    According to Gary, the private detective hired by the Libertarians intimidated witnesses into saying they had been tricked.
    =============================
    Like you said “According to Gary”. Someone who ignores his responsibility to others and is selfishly self-serving is not to be believed.
    ============================================

    The national party suspended Gary and Karen Fincher , who were conducting the registration drive, and they have left the state. Another party activist picked up the push in Las Cruces, Silver City and Portales, and the Libertarians say he was especially careful to explain to voters that they would be changing their party.
    Yeah, the Libertarians said that.

    State Elections Director Denise Lamb, however, said problems continued. Many voters contacted have changed their party registration back, and Lamb maintains that throughout the drive, voters “were deceived and lied to and told to leave the party identification blank.”
    What makes Lamb so sure anyone was told to leave the party field blank?
    ===========================
    Because employees under the direction State Elections Director Denise Lamb also contacted these voters. That is what makes Lamb so sure anyone was told to leave the party field blank

    ===================================
    State LP official Ron Bjornstad watched the Finchers work before he introduced himself, and then worked with them, and saw no such activity taking place.
    ============================
    Bjornstad did not see such events at that time, does not mean the did not occur before or after. Sorry, very inconclusive, to the point of not being of any real relevance.

    It was also determined that while petitioning in New Mexico Fincher was registered to vote there while living elsewhere.
    Since he was living in New Mexico for an extended period of time, and did not own a home or rent an apartment anywhere else at the time, “living elsewhere” is highly dubious.
    Gary Fincher knows well what he cannot do at polling places
    Strangely enough, Gary says that when he told then NM Governor (and former LP member) Gary Johnson about the T-shirt arrest, Johnson said he has worn clothing identifying candidates or parties when he went to vote in the past, and would be issuing a pardon. However, Johnson failed to follow through on his promise.
    ===========================
    Still he did not comply with the orders given to him, and got no pardon from the Governor.

    ========================================================
    The result of Fincher’s action was the New Mexico LP lost it’s petition drive and it’s was unable to obtain ballot access.
    According to Richard Winger of Ballot Access News, the registrations counted, and as a result LP National Chair Bill Redpath paid Gary for those registrations in 2007.
    ==========================================
    Like I said, as a result of the Fincher’s actions was that the New Mexico LP lost it’s petition drive and was unable to obtain ballot access. The petition drive was for the year 2000, not 2007. Hundreds of registered voters names were knocked off of those 1999 petitions. As a result further petitioning was needed and the LP NM was unable to get the ballot sttus they sought until 2006. The published scandal around the signature gathering had to have hurt the overall effort.

    ===================================================
    Both Gary and Karen, Karen is now deceased and cannot comment, fled New Mexico and refused to return to answer the questions about what they did with those petitions.
    In other words, they had to go elsewhere to get another job, and were not able to return in time?
    ======================================
    No, they just did not return to answer for their actions. You honestly think they could not come down for a day and answer an inquiry? I believe they did not come back because they were guilty of the complaints lodged against them, that if they stonewalled long enough the LP would just send them some money and hope they stay away.

    I have read the findings of the LP of New Mexico on their website, they included rebuttals from Gary Fincher. Gary says everybody else either screwed up or lied, that he was the only one telling the truth.

    He rebutted individual interviews with voters but there was no interview conducted by him, he only said they did not do it.

    The LP NM hired a private investigator as a disinterested third party to investigate the Fincher’s actions. While supporters of Fincher have called the PI a “statist. There is no evidence of his conduction a false investigation. As a licensed PI such an investigator will only seek out the truth, nothing else. I know a few PI s, this is how they work.

    From the LP NM website the Summery report of the PI’s investigation reads:

    Investigative Report
    January 7, 2000

    Summery:

    It is the opinion of this investigator that the people involved in attempting to register voters for the Libertarian Party were less than honest with the public.

    The fact that ll of the random selected voters that I contacted had no intention of registering as a voting Libertarian seems to bolster this opinion.

    The comments of these voters range from “Mis-Led” to “lied to”.

    I do nkt know the Finchers nor have I had a chance to interview them but in the light of the 100% negative response form those interviewed the chance of this investigators opinion being changed is small.

    Not being a Libertarian myself I see this as a major blow to the Party that it could Ill afford especially during the quest for major party status.

    I offer no suggestions to the possible motive for these actions whether well intentioned or not.

    Terry Pearson

    ——————————-

    LP National has demanded that Gary Fincher not be involved with any aspect of gathering signatures for the LP for any purpose.

    That Fincher’s actions have shown an unreliable character. He conspired with LP members to intentionally violate the terms of probation won in a plea bargain. He handed in signatures that were obtained by “less than honest” means at best. He handed in petitions with false SS numbers. His conduct at polling places have resulted in arrests and convictions.

    The conduct of an employee, and even a volunteer, requires sacrifice of one’s own needs for the needs of the employer. It requires a professional appearance, demeanor, quality and honesty.

    If Finchner did the things he did for “liberty” or for the “good of the party then he did so to satisfy his own self-interests at the sacrifice of the LP.

    Knowingly turning in petition signatures that have been dishonestly obtained, either by misleading the voters or by forgery, and being paid a bounty for such improper signatures is self service – if not down right fraud. To violate the terms of probation in order to make more money is again self serving, and more than a little illegal.

    From what I have been able to find out I find that Gary Fincher is not suitable to be a petitioner, paid or not.

    Kevin O’Connell

  27. Actually Prosecutors offices have enough to do that they often do not follow up charges with prosecution , especially in cases where a resolution is reached.

    Right, so they had time to prosecute the T-shirt thing but not massive voter registration fraud?

    Actually I understand Karen did remove here the LP items, but then got arrested and convicted for “electioneering too close to a polling place, disorderly conduct and resisting an officer, and ordered to pay $713 in fines and court costs” which I quote from the newspaper article in an above post. It seems she started to comply but got involved further when Gary did not comply with orders. Looks like since she attempted to interfere with Gary complying with the orders then she supported Gary’s effort, I believe this is how she got the “electioneering too close to a polling place” conviction.

    Or else she was arrested for the “crime” by vindictive police even though she complied.

    In what way did she interfere?

    Because employees under the direction State Elections Director Denise Lamb also contacted these voters. That is what makes Lamb so sure anyone was told to leave the party field blank

    And what makes you think Lamb is to be believed?

    Strangely enough, Gary says that when he told then NM Governor (and former LP member) Gary Johnson about the T-shirt arrest, Johnson said he has worn clothing identifying candidates or parties when he went to vote in the past, and would be issuing a pardon. However, Johnson failed to follow through on his promise.
    ===========================
    Still he did not comply with the orders given to him, and got no pardon from the Governor.

    So if it’s so well known that he could not wear the shirt, why would Johnson do same? Why would he offer a pardon, even if he did not follow through?

    Also, Gary has told me that they did not even offer him a chance to comply – grabbing him from behind with no warning.

    According to Richard Winger of Ballot Access News, the registrations counted, and as a result LP National Chair Bill Redpath paid Gary for those registrations in 2007.
    ==========================================
    Like I said, as a result of the Fincher’s actions was that the New Mexico LP lost it’s petition drive and was unable to obtain ballot access. The petition drive was for the year 2000, not 2007. Hundreds of registered voters names were knocked off of those 1999 petitions. As a result further petitioning was needed and the LP NM was unable to get the ballot sttus they sought until 2006. The published scandal around the signature gathering had to have hurt the overall effort.

    You’ll have to forgive me. I’m afraid I can’t place your name right now.

    But I do know Richard Winger is the foremost expert on these matters I know of, with an encyclopedic knowledge.

    If he says Gary’s registrations in this case counted, and his testimony on this issue is what convinced Bill Redpath to pay Gary (although many years later) for the registrations in question, I’d have to see more convincing evidence than a flat assertion that the above is true.

  28. July 8, 2008 at 12:23 am
    Actually Prosecutors offices have enough to do that they often do not follow up charges with prosecution , especially in cases where a resolution is reached.
    Right, so they had time to prosecute the T-shirt thing but not massive voter registration fraud?
    =========================
    That is correct, two different events separated by time and place.

    The refusal to comply with orders at a polling place had no resolution other than the court room.

    Your “massive voter registration fraud” was resolved between the NM LP and the Board of Elections. The government felt that in this case this was sufficient for them.

    ==========================================

    Actually I understand Karen did remove here the LP items, but then got arrested and convicted for “electioneering too close to a polling place, disorderly conduct and resisting an officer, and ordered to pay $713 in fines and court costs” which I quote from the newspaper article in an above post. It seems she started to comply but got involved further when Gary did not comply with orders. Looks like since she attempted to interfere with Gary complying with the orders then she supported Gary’s effort, I believe this is how she got the “electioneering too close to a polling place” conviction.
    Or else she was arrested for the “crime” by vindictive police even though she complied.
    In what way did she interfere?
    ================================
    I wrote “It seems she started to comply but got involved further when Gary did not comply with orders. Looks like since she attempted to interfere with Gary complying with the orders then she supported Gary’s effort” This is the best I have been able to determine so far.

    ====================================

    =======================
    Because employees under the direction State Elections Director Denise Lamb also contacted these voters. That is what makes Lamb so sure anyone was told to leave the party field blank
    And what makes you think Lamb is to be believed?
    ===================================

    Good question. Lambs’ findings match the independent findings of he Private Investigator hired by the NM LP. Lamb’s findings were confirmed by the4 NM LP.

    You have no rational reason to doubt Lamb’s findings.
    ===========================================

    Strangely enough, Gary says that when he told then NM Governor (and former LP member) Gary Johnson about the T-shirt arrest, Johnson said he has worn clothing identifying candidates or parties when he went to vote in the past, and would be issuing a pardon. However, Johnson failed to follow through on his promise.
    ===========================
    Still he did not comply with the orders given to him, and got no pardon from the Governor.
    So if it’s so well known that he could not wear the shirt, why would Johnson do same? Why would he offer a pardon, even if he did not follow through?
    ====================================
    Gary has said a lot of things that have not been confirmed by a witness. These are all claims that support him but he offers no confirmable facts.
    ==========================================
    Also, Gary has told me that they did not even offer him a chance to comply – grabbing him from behind with no warning.
    =============================
    I will answer this with the full text of a newspaper article where both Karen and Gary were interviewed. From the interview you will see he lied to you.

    =============================================
    According to Richard Winger of Ballot Access News, the registrations counted, and as a result LP National Chair Bill Redpath paid Gary for those registrations in 2007.
    ==========================================
    Like I said, as a result of the Fincher’s actions was that the New Mexico LP lost it’s petition drive and was unable to obtain ballot access. The petition drive was for the year 2000, not 2007. Hundreds of registered voters names were knocked off of those 1999 petitions. As a result further petitioning was needed and the LP NM was unable to get the ballot sttus they sought until 2006. The published scandal around the signature gathering had to have hurt the overall effort.
    You’ll have to forgive me. I’m afraid I can’t place your name right now.
    But I do know Richard Winger is the foremost expert on these matters I know of, with an encyclopedic knowledge.
    If he says Gary’s registrations in this case counted, and his testimony on this issue is what convinced Bill Redpath to pay Gary (although many years later) for the registrations in question, I’d have to see more convincing evidence than a flat assertion that the above is true.
    ==========================
    So e-mail an officer of the LP NM and ask it they were unable to get the ballot status the 19999 / 2000 petition was meant to obtain until 2006.

    Stop believing, start getting some facts.

    Kevin

  29. Also, Gary has told me that they did not even offer him a chance to comply – grabbing him from behind with no warning.
    =============================
    I will answer this with the full text of a newspaper article where both Karen and Gary were interviewed. From the interview you will see he lied to you.
    XXXXXX

    Here is where I answer your reporting of what Gary told you, that “that they did not even offer him a chance to comply – grabbing him from behind with no warning”

    From the Santa Fe New Mexican, November 6, 1998 Author: Kim Baca

    Arrested Libertarians planning legal action
    The (NM) –
    Two people who were arrested Tuesday on charges of campaigning too close to a polling place and disorderly conduct said their constitutional right to vote was violated and plan to take court action.

    Gary Fincher , 33, and Karen Fincher , 42, both of the 1000 block of Airport Road and members of the Libertarian Party, were arrested Tuesday afternoon after allegedly wearing a Libertarian T-shirt and logo to the Sweeney Elementary School polling precinct when trying to vote.

    State law prohibits display of signs and distribution of campaign literature within 100 feet of any polling place.

    According to a report from the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Department, deputies were contacted after poll workers repeatedly asked the Finchers to either cover up the T-shirt Gary Fincher was wearing or take it off.

    The Finchers said they complied with election workers’ request when Karen Fincher covered a statute-of-liberty logo on her jacket. But they felt the request to take off the T-shirt and turn it around was a “bizarre demand,” said the Finchers in a press release Thursday.

    Gary Fincher , campaign manager for public lands commissioner candidate Maurice McDonald, said he did not have to turn the shirt inside out because he was not distributing literature or displaying signs. He said they were also accused by election workers of campaigning at a polling place.

    “ Gary nor Karen brought any of their campaign materials or signs to the polling place,” stated the Fincher ‘s press release. “In fact, they both were standing in line, waiting to vote, holding their respective voting cards.”

    According to state election officials, however, a T-shirt is a display of some political affiliation.

    Karen Fincher also claims she suffered bruises after a deputy grabbed her by the arm.

    Santa Fe County Sheriff Benjie Montano said the deputy did grab Karen Fincher ‘s arm only after they became disruptive.

    “(The deputy) who showed up asked them to cooperate by either turning their T-shirts inside out, covering it up, or move 100 feet from the voting area,” he said. “At that point, the deputy said the two subjects became verbally loud.”

    Both Finchers were arrested and charged with electioneering too close to the polling place and disorderly conduct and booked into the Santa Fe County jail. The Finchers were later released on their own recognizance.

    If convicted, the Finchers could face a maximum of 364 days and up to $5,000 in fines on the charges, which are considered misdemeanors.

    End Quote

    Paulie, Gary stated :

    “The Finchers said they complied with election workers’ request when Karen Fincher covered a statute-of-liberty logo on her jacket. But they felt the request to take off the T-shirt and turn it around was a “bizarre demand,” said the Finchers in a press release Thursday.

    Gary Fincher , campaign manager for public lands commissioner candidate Maurice McDonald, said he did not have to turn the shirt inside out because he was not distributing literature or displaying signs. He said they were also accused by election workers of campaigning at a polling place. “

    So nobody jumped them from behind without warning, Gary either lied to you or to the reporter. How can you tell which is the truth?

    This article is your personal smoking gun.

    Stop blindly believing, start researching and finding facts.

  30. I don’t blindly believe anything.

    Gary can speak for himself.

    I’ve been misquoted in newspapers before, how about you?

  31. I don’t blindly believe anything.

    Gary can speak for himself.

    I’ve been misquoted in newspapers before, how about you?
    ===================
    Paulie,

    You have been given newspaper articles, written findings from a PR hired by the LP and other sources. Yet you do not confirm them yourself, you do not research, you blindly believe in what you wish too.

    One cannot help a man who will not help himself, you are beyond help.

  32. I have an open mind.

  33. The thing I find interesting at this point is that all the debate seems to be focussung on ANCIENT HISTORY… Whatever may or may not have happenned in NM, or elsewhere 8 or 9 years ago may be interesting from a historical standpoint, but it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the situation that we are CURRRENTLY in…

    Garry Fincher has JUST FINISHED collecting 2,000 signatures for the LPMA that are, by all indications available to us as of this date, high quality acceptable work.

    Sean Haugh, an employee of the LNC, just attempted to have those petitions DESTROYED – an act that would definitely have been a crime had he succeeded, and that is arguably a crime simply for the attempt.

    Sean Haugh, has RECENTLY acted to attack the reputation and interfere with the employment of multiple experienced professional petitioners, including Gary Fincher, Andy, Pauli, without record of recent problems.

    There are also CURRENT allegations that other petitioners than the above, RECENTLY hired by LNC employees have been found to be less effective at gathering signatures, including possibly submitting FRAUDULENT signatures, and charging much higher rates for them….

    All of the above is information provided by sources OTHER than the professional petitioners involved, and has apparently been verified by other sources.

    I find it very strange that Kevin and some of the other posters here are terribly concerned about what Gary might or might not have done nearly a decade ago, but don’t seem to care that Sean Haugh and others in the LNC / LPHQ are at the very least wasting their resources TODAY…

    If I hadn’t misplaced my tin-foil hat, it would almost be enough to make me start wondering about conspiracies or something…

    ART

  34. pauliecannoli Says:
    July 8, 2008 at 2:12 am

    I have an open mind.
    ================
    It is not evident from your writings.

  35. Sean Haugh, has RECENTLY acted to attack the reputation and interfere with the employment of multiple experienced professional petitioners, including Gary Fincher, Andy, Pauli, without record of recent problems.

    Paul or Paulie. The I and the E are a package deal.

  36. I have an open mind.
    ================
    It is not evident from your writings.

    One might say the same of yours. But I do.

  37. I find it very strange that Kevin and some of the other posters here are terribly concerned about what Gary might or might not have done nearly a decade ago, but don’t seem to care that Sean Haugh and others in the LNC / LPHQ are at the very least wasting their resources TODAY…

    Curious, isn’t it?

  38. rthur Torrey Says:
    July 8, 2008 at 2:54 am
    The thing I find interesting at this point is that all the debate seems to be focussung on ANCIENT HISTORY… Whatever may or may not have happenned in NM, or elsewhere 8 or 9 years ago may be interesting from a historical standpoint, but it is TOTALLY IRRELEVANT to the situation that we are CURRRENTLY in…
    Garry Fincher has JUST FINISHED collecting 2,000 signatures for the LPMA that are, by all indications available to us as of this date, high quality acceptable work.
    =========================

    This is a good and valid point for consideration.

    George H W Bush’s Presidency ended in 1993. If he were to seek office, or some form of political employment, then you certainly would not say that 1993 and before were ancient history. You would consider what he did during his Presidency as well as prior.

    If you fill out a job application you can expect to report your history all the way back to high school. Also to report if you had ever been convicted of a felony. When it comes to using someone for employment, which is the Gary Fincher case, their history must be considered more than just the last few years.

    You mentioned Sean Haugh, he and how he had handled this is another subject. Let’s look at that below.

    ==============================

    Sean Haugh, an employee of the LNC, just attempted to have those petitions DESTROYED – an act that would definitely have been a crime had he succeeded, and that is arguably a crime simply for the attempt.
    Sean Haugh, has RECENTLY acted to attack the reputation and interfere with the employment of multiple experienced professional petitioners, including Gary Fincher, Andy, Pauli, without record of recent problems.
    There are also CURRENT allegations that other petitioners than the above, RECENTLY hired by LNC employees have been found to be less effective at gathering signatures, including possibly submitting FRAUDULENT signatures, and charging much higher rates for them….
    All of the above is information provided by sources OTHER than the professional petitioners involved, and has apparently been verified by other sources.
    =================================
    From what I have seen and understand Haughs’ order to burn petition’s submitted by Fincher is in all probability way out of order. These are official documents and must be preserved. Still I understand that LPN issued orders to LP MA to not hire Fincher. IF LPN had provided funds to pay for petitioning it would be withen reasonable power for them to set terms of the monies use. Still this matter must be compared to the bylaws to see if they cover this.

    Still when a petitioner is suspect and found to have submitted petitions I can only say I would do the most prudent thing. First remove them from further petitioning, including volunteers working for free. The turn over the petition and advise the Board of Elections that the petitioner was dismissed and that the signatures are suspect. Now the Party is free of complaints by the Board of Elections as the Elections Board is responsible for checking the suspect signatures.

    I would seriously consider denying all petition money being sent to any affiliate that violated terms if the bylaws allowed it. Perhaps just the money given to the banned petitioners but I lean towards denying all monies. If the money is already paid then be deny future monies sent to the affiliate until the amount is paid off. Speak nicely and if that does not work drop the iron fist.

    ===================================

    I find it very strange that Kevin and some of the other posters here are terribly concerned about what Gary might or might not have done nearly a decade ago, but don’t seem to care that Sean Haugh and others in the LNC / LPHQ are at the very least wasting their resources TODAY…
    If I hadn’t misplaced my tin-foil hat, it would almost be enough to make me start wondering about conspiracies or something…
    ART

  39. IF LPN had provided funds to pay for petitioning it would be withen reasonable power for them to set terms of the monies use

    Phillies paid Fincher out of his own money.

  40. Kevin, I hope sometime that you’ll share whatever it is you’r smoking…

    1. My resume hasn’t gone back to High School in over 20 years… If it did I’d need 5-6 pages, not just the two the “experts” say is max.

    2. George Bush has had one job that he performed poorly… Fincher and friends have a LONG record of good performance, with a very few cases of debatable history, mostly in the distant past…

    3. Some jobs it is ILLEGAL to ask if the applicant has a felony conviction, others allow the question only for certain offenses relevant to the job, and many are not concerned about it. As far as I’m concerned, the only time any legal record of a petitioner would matter is if he had been convicted of a law that would prohibit participation in the election process – like the one that HAUGH has violated…

    4. The Mass LP HAS spot checked the validity of Fincher’s sigs to the extent that it can (see some of my other posts on the level of checking we can do) We have seen absolutely NO reason to expect ANY problems with validity, other than the usual percentage of signatures that get disallowed on ANY petition, usually for reasons having nothing to do with the petitioner (Experienced people like Gary tend to do better than volunteers because they know how to do things that improve their validity rates, such as having people print their names as well as sign, print addressses, etc.) If Gary’s petitions have a significantly different validity rate from any others when certified I’m sure we’ll say something.

    4A. Fincher was NOT fired, suspended, or otherwise let go – he is NOT suspect as far as the LPMA is concerned. He performed the task we asked him to in a satisfactory way, and has been paid in full. Until such time as we find a REASON to believe he has been less than honest with us (which I doubt at this point) we will continue to give him a positive reccomendation, and may very well hire him again if need be.

    5. Haugh did NOT “order” the LPMA not to hire Fincher – he went ballistic when he learned that we already had… The decision was made by the Phillies campaign, based on PREVIOUS GOOD EXPERIENCE with Fincher’s abilities as a petitioner

    6. Before making totally ignorant and asinine suggestions about what should be done with Finchers signatures, you might actually want to LEARN something about how the process works in Mass. – Your concept MIGHT work with a state that has a single centralized elections board – Mass. does not – Each of our 351 cities and towns gets its own set of petitions, turned over to that particular registrar for certification – I’m not involved directly with the petition sorting, but I’d be willing to bet from having petitioned in the state as a volunteer that Fincher probably has sheets going to half the state’s communities if not more… Besides, as mentioned, Fincher is NOT suspect…

    7. NO money from National was spent on paying Fincher… Our arrangement was that LPMA would pay for some signatures, collected by people WE hired, and that LPHQ would pay for other signatures collected by people that THEY hired… Fincher was hired and paid for with money from either the LPMA FEC account, or from the Phillies for President campaign. Thus even IF Fincher had been dishonest, no LNC resources would have been missapropriated, and no “terms” violated.

    ART
    LPMA Operations Facilitator
    speaking mostly for myself

  41. There is absolutely no legitimate reason for anyone in the petition world to not hire Gary Fincher as he is one of the best petitioners in the business.

    The notion that LP National should not hire him is a bunch of BS. Gary is a long time hardcore Libertarian activist and an outstanding petitioner.

  42. Kevin O’Connell doesn’t sound like much of a libertarian given that he is making critical remarks about Gary over getting arrested for bogus offenses which should be a codemnation of the police state rather than of Gary.

    It is also crappy that Kevin O’Connell included Gary’s late wife Karen in these pot shots.

  43. Someplace upstream of here–can’t find it–is an assertion that Massachusetts Town Clerks check signatures, in addition to confirming whether or not an a person of the asserted name lives at the asserted address as an eligible voter.

    That assertion is incorrect.

    In Massachusetts as a result of several court cases it is contrary to law for Town Clerks to check signatures to see if the handwriting matches, and, in fact, the computer voter file used for the check does not have a signature graphic in it.

    Thus, the validation process that LPMass uses to check for signature validity is identical to that used by the Town Clerks and City Boards of Election, except that they have a lot more practice at reading bad printed handwriting than we do.

  44. Thanks for the correction George – I think it was my mis-statement that the local Registrars checked the signatures… I’d gathered that understanding from the collecting side of the petition process, but you may well be right – in which case I’d be surprised if there is a significant difference in what we get back from the gov’t for validity, and what we have estimated as an expectation…

    ART

  45. Andy Says:
    July 8, 2008 at 6:39 am

    There is absolutely no legitimate reason for anyone in the petition world to not hire Gary Fincher as he is one of the best petitioners in the business.

    The notion that LP National should not hire him is a bunch of BS. Gary is a long time hardcore Libertarian activist and an outstanding petitioner.
    ===================
    Well, Andy, you do not see a reason.

    Others get to use their own judgment, they are not required to follow your judgment.

    In the New Mexico campaign Fincher’s petitions contained false Social Security numbers, something one who handled the petitions would have to have done.

    Equally an investigation carried out by the State, and confirmed by a professional investigation conducted by the LP NM, found that people who signed the petions were falsely advised to the consequences of signing the petitions. This has been confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt, even Gary Fincher only says it was not by him, he does not deny it happened. That people were deceived into switching their Party affiliation to Libertarian.

    The New Mexico petition disaster started in 1999 for the 2000 election. As a result of the bad petition signature, most seemed to have been on petitions submitted by Fincher, the NM LP did not obtain ballot access until 2006. This effort was by any standard an unprofessional effort and was more damaging than just a failed effort.

    Fincher has a long history of unprofessional conduct while petitioning and campaigning at polling places. That Fincher was just standing up to unjust laws or rules is not an valid point, the issue is professional conduct. At these events Fincher is not there to convince Libertarians of his righteousness, he is there to represent the LP in such a way as to convince non believers that they should consider the LP. Fincher’s behavior has been such that it repulses non-LP members.

    Back in the early 90’s Fincher admitted to conspiring with LP members and carrying out a parole violation.

    All this is over a period of time and in this time Fincher has shown behavior that was deceptive, the parole violation if nothing else, and unprofessional conduct. While you may think that something previously is of no consideration others are free to use this information.

    One of the principals of Libertarianism is the freedom of association. This also includes the freedom to not associate with anyone for any reason. If people in the LP, National office or not, do not wish Fincher around in the capacity of a petitioner then there can be no questioning of their reason other than to decide if you wish to join them in their opinion of Fincher.

    As for his work for LP MA that is yet to be seen. He says he turned in 2,000 signature for 11 days work, that averages 181 signatures a day. If he used only 8 hours a day to sleep, eat, travel to the site, do the paper work, take bathroom breaks, bath then he would produce 182 (rounded up) signatures in a 16 hour work day. He would have to produce 11.375 signatures every hour, that is one every 5 minutes and 15 seconds. A signature one every 5 minutes and 15 seconds is probably impossible and that is for 16 hours of solid work, he probably could only put in actual hours less than that which would require an even higher rate of signatures per minute.

    The rate of one signature every 5 minutes and 15 seconds sounds too good to be true and when something sounds too good to be true it usually is. Give somebody an old copy of a voter registration list or a phone book and you can get as many signatures per minute as you can write up. I do not know that Fincher used this method but I cannot see where he can get the results he has claimed.

    The true results of Fincher’s work with the LP MA in 2008 are not in. With the pubplic debate and the public writing of his documented questionable past you can bet somebody is going to challenge Fichner’s petitions, his opponents within the LP if not another Party.

    This will not be decided on this discsuion board, it will be decided in the Board of Elections. Watch for Fincher to suddenly leave as he did in New Mexico.

  46. 7. NO money from National was spent on paying Fincher… Our arrangement was that LPMA would pay for some signatures, collected by people WE hired, and that LPHQ would pay for other signatures collected by people that THEY hired… Fincher was hired and paid for with money from either the LPMA FEC account, or from the Phillies for President campaign. Thus even IF Fincher had been dishonest, no LNC resources would have been missapropriated, and no “terms” violated.

    ART
    LPMA Operations Facilitator
    speaking mostly for myself
    ———————–
    That is an interesting point Art, who is paying Fincher, LP MA or the Phillies Campaign?

    Has Fincher received any money so far and if so from whom?

    I expect LPN would still object to Fincher petitioning if the petitions were titled in the name of the LP MA and not in the Phillies campaign even if the money came from Phillies. I expect they would take the position that the petitons were an in kind donation, as would the Elections Board. There are considerations here but it is only worth the effort of discussion if you post that the money to Fincher actually came from Phillies.

    So who is actually paying Fincher and from what fund?

  47. Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 15:03:09 -0400
    Subject: Re: Question about Alabama
    From: sean.haugh at lp.org
    To: markpickens at hotmail.com
    CC: scott at draftresitance.org; robert.kraus at lp.org

    Mark, I just received evidence that Gary Fincher is working in Massachusetts on our drive through you. I have told you before that this is completely unacceptable. I am now going to call the LPMA and instruct them to burn (quite literally) any signatures collected by Gary, whether they paid for them or not. I had warned them too.

    Since it’s obvious that I can’t trust you to keep Fincher away from our petitions, I cannot work with you any longer. I’ll figure out some other way to keep Paul. This decision is final, and frankly I’m very
    disappointed.

    yours in liberty –
    Sean

    It is evident that Sean thought he had previously contacted someone in the LP MA effort with instructions to not hire Fincher.

    Sean’s previous contact with people in Mass regards not hiring Fincher needs to be investigated and documented. If he contacted the wrong people then his objections are moot.

    Making the objections moot because of contacting the wrong people ends the matter and removes questioning Fincher’s past.

    “Problem solv-ed”. – Chief Inspector Clouseau.

  48. Kevin OConnel says: “Regardless of what one thinks of the validly of Fincher’s conviction / probation a person who intentionally disobeys laws / rules they do not wish to comply with cannot be considered trustworthy.”

    LOL supporters of Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Thoreau and Rosa Parks would laugh at you if you wrote this to them, as well as those involved in the Underground Railroad. LOL. Unbelievable. You just lost ALL credibility, Kevin, and exposed that you don’t have ANY idea what you are talking about!

  49. Kevin OConnell says, “As a petition gatherer for the LP Fincher’s past action cast doubts on his petition signatures. It would be wise to not hire such a person.”

    Nope, it would be wise not to hire YOU, and I mean for ANYTHING, ANYWHERE – the marketplace, politics, government, ANYWHERE.

  50. “State law bars display of signs and distribution of campaign literature within 100 feet of any polling place. The couple were arrested by Santa Fe County deputies and booked into the county jail.”

    And see, it shows that we were arrested in violation of the law, since we were not “carrying signs or distributing literature.”

  51. “and a private investigator later hired by the Libertarians agreed — that hundreds of voters in the Albuquerque area had been misled into changing their party affiliation.”

    No, this is shoddy journalism. The private investigator actually found that we did *not* mislead voters.

  52. Lie: “I wrote of his arrest in Alabama”
    Truth: I was never arrested in Alabama.

    Lie: Another party activist picked up the push in Las Cruces, Silver City and Portales, and the Libertarians say he was especially careful to explain to voters that they would be changing their party.

    Truth: That other activist was Scott Kohlhaas, who *did* have voters lie and accuse him of misleading voters. Andy says that when he petitioned in Las Cruces in 2005, voters were coming up to him and telling him that Kohlhaas misled voters. Why wasn’t a private investigator hired to “investigate” Kohlhaas?

    Lie: “were deceived and lied to and told to leave the party identification blank.”
    Truth: No party identification space was left blank, that I know of.

    Lie: Gary Fincher was convicted May 21, also in Magistrate Court, of electioneering to close to a polling place, and ordered to pay a $51 fine. He failed to pay, and Judge Bill Dimas issued a bench warrant Oct. 18 for his arrest.”

    Truth: I was acquitted of disorderly conduct and nailed on the bogus “electioneering” charge (which I wasn’t even guilty of). I received one year of unsupervised probation and told to “vote twice next time” as remedy for losing my vote (what this was actually about). I was never fined at all, nor is there a warrant in NM for me.

    Lie: Gary Fincher knows well what he cannot do at polling places and while petitioning and has a long history of intentionally violating these laws and regulations.

    Truth: I know what I can’t do at a polling place and while petitioning, which is, commit an actual crime. I didn’t in fact violate any laws or regulations, intentionally or not.

    Lie: It was also determined that while petitioning in New Mexico Fincher was registered to vote there while living elsewhere.

    Truth: I moved to NM to manage a campaign, and so registered to vote. Bill Redpath actually encouraged me to register to vote in places where I lived briefly – he’s who I got the idea from. And I should add that I don’t think there’s anything wrong or illegal with that.

    Lie: Both Gary and Karen, Karen is now deceased and cannot comment, fled New Mexico and refused to return to answer the questions about what they did with those petitions.

    Ironic truth: We offered to go to KOB-TV when the false story of misleading voters first broke, in order to set the record straight and clear our names, but STATE CHAIR JOE KNIGHT BEGGED US NOT TO, (of course, only to reverse himself once we’d left the state, for medical treatments, to later mischaracterize it as if we’d actually “refused” to go to KOB-TV.

    Lie: It would be foolish to hire a petitioner who has a confirmed record of fraudulent petitioning

    Truth: Yes, it would; but I don’t fall into that category.

    Lie:. In this case the Libertarian Party made the confirmation themselves by hiring a private investigator.

    Truth: The hiring of a so-called private investigator represented a waste of party resources, to find out what we already knew. The results of the investigation CONFIRMED that we didn’t mislead voters. Read it yourself (search for ‘Robert Lucero’)

    Lie: The result of Fincher’s action was the New Mexico LP lost it’s petition drive and it’s was unable to obtain ballot access.

    Truth: Nope; ballot access expert Richard Winger reported that all those registrations COUNTED.

  53. Gary Says:
    July 9, 2008 at 1:04 am

    “and a private investigator later hired by the Libertarians agreed — that hundreds of voters in the Albuquerque area had been misled into changing their party affiliation.”

    No, this is shoddy journalism. The private investigator actually found that we did *not* mislead voters.
    ====================================
    Gary,
    I bet you thought the information confirming the journalist’s report was no longer on the itnernet.

    The private investigator actually found you *did* mislead voters.

    From the LP of New Mexico website the Summery report of the PI’s investigation reads:

    Investigative Report
    January 7, 2000
    Summery:
    It is the opinion of this investigator that the people involved in attempting to register voters for the Libertarian Party were less than honest with the public.

    The fact that all of the random selected voters that I contacted had no intention of registering as a voting Libertarian seems to bolster this opinion. The comments of these voters range from “Mis-Led” to “lied to”.

    I do not know the Finchers nor have I had a chance to interview them but in the light of the 100% negative response form those interviewed the chance of this investigators opinion being changed is small.

    Not being a Libertarian myself I see this as a major blow to the Party that it could Ill afford especially during the quest for major party status.

    I offer no suggestions to the possible motive for these actions whether well intentioned or not.

    Terry Pearson

  54. “Good question. Lambs’ findings match the independent findings of he Private Investigator hired by the NM LP. Lamb’s findings were confirmed by the4 NM LP.”

    No, Lamb’s “findings” conflicted with the private investigator’s findings. The private invesitagor found that we did *not* mislead voters.

  55. Kevin, that’s not the case at all. Check out what Robert Lucero said in the report. Touche.

  56. So since I won this debate, why don’t you move yourself on and stop spreading things that you know damn well aren’t true?

  57. Bet ya missed this piece of vindicating evidence, Kevin…

    Interview:
    Robert Lucero
    Bureau Of Elections Coordinator
    Bernalillo County
    505-768-4104

    Mr Lucero stated that he had personally gone to the sight where the Finchers were registering voters and posed as a potential registrant.

    Mr Lucero stated that he had asked the Finchers many questions concerning their efforts and received many answers he considered in violation of the election code.

    Mr Lucero stated that he asked if they were only signing up “Libertarians” or could he sign up as a “Republican” to which he stated that Mr Fincher told him “that would defeat their purpose.”

    Mr Lucero stated that he had contacted the District Attorneys office concerning possible violations of the Election Code and that they would be doing an investigation also.

    Mr Lucero furnished me with (2) letters written in reference to the situation and they are included in this report.

    Mr Lucero seemed a little hesitant to discuss an ongoing investigation with this investigator but did say that he had heard that they were ” also having problems with the Libertarian Party registration in Las Cruces.”

    Sounds like we really “tricked” him into registering Libertarian (at least I guess it would sound that way to your warped ability to reason) to me, huh?

    Only a moron would assert that INSISTING TOO HARD that someone register Libertarian actually constitutes “tricking” them into registering Libertarian.

    Nuff said.

  58. And this Lucero guy had the biggest motivation of anyone to report that we were tricking voters!

  59. Better quit while you’re ahead Kevin (or Dean)…you’re coming off looking quite foolish.

  60. Gary Says:
    Lie: It would be foolish to hire a petitioner who has a confirmed record of fraudulent petitioning

    Truth: Yes, it would; but I don’t fall into that category.
    ===================
    First, your reply of “Truth: Yes, it would” means the title of “Lie” you gave to that quote is worng, perhaps a lie.

    As to your “Truth: Yes, it would; but I don’t fall into that category.”

    You earlier wrote here,

    “but I did make a strategic blunder on that drive regarding SSNs on the forms, a mistake I called attention to with then-national director Steve Dasbach. Steve instructed me to make amends for my error which entailed me to undergo a one-year probation period after which time I would be able to get paid the balance for my N.M. work, then resume working on future drives for the party.”

    The petitions you turned in had false SSNs . Someone entered fake SSN onto those petitions. Who did this?

  61. Gary Says:
    July 9, 2008 at 1:39 am

    So since I won this debate, why don’t you move yourself on and stop spreading things that you know damn well aren’t true?
    =========================

    Gary, you have won nothing. Your brag of having won the “debate” is worth of Baghdad Bob.

    There is a term called the Preponderance of Evidence.

    There is a clear and long record of your convictions and admissions of guilt in courts. You have openly written a confession of violating terms of probation. Your petitioning effort in New Mexico was at best incompetent and at worst fraudulent and your failure here is well documented.

    Your counter to all of this has been that everybody but you is lieing, that people turn against you. Nothing but empty accusations. Your proofs are your own writings that such and such person did not catch you doing anything wrong or incompetent despite other having documented such actions on your part.

    The preponderance of evidence weighs heavily against you, Your individual counters crumble when compared to your doumented record of competency and honesty.

    The internet is the worst place for the poorly crafted defense you have offered which is filled with too many holes and draws too much attention. Continue this and you will defeat yourself, if you have not already.

  62. Kevin once more shows his ignorance…

    1. I’m no professional petitioner, but I’ve EASILY exceeded 15 – 20 LEGITIMATE sigs / hour on many occasions, by picking good locations. Even picking average ones, such as my local grocery store, I usually get about 1 in 20 customers to sign… Busier locations would get more sigs, and my understanding is that guys like Gary often set up in malls and other locations with much higher traffic.

    2. I do not know the details of whether the money came directly from the Phillies campaign or from the LPMA treasury – it is IRRELEVANT in terms of election law, as it is 100% legal for either to pay for ballot access petitioning as long as it is for “Federal Candidates” – which is the case for both President and US Senate. Also if you’d bothered to pay any attention to our other posts, you would have seen repeatedly that we have paid Fincher IN FULL for the work performed, at a rate that was mutually agreeable.

    3. Regardless of whether LPHQ told us not to hire Fincher beforehand, (As far as I know, we were NOT), there is no reason for us NOT to have done so – LPMA was running it’s part of the drive, and LPHQ was running it’s part, and would have NO authority to tell us who to hire or not hire…

    ART
    LPMA Operations Facilitator
    LPMA Presidential Elector, Not voting for Barr!
    Elected Libertarian

  63. Art,

    I am not sure it is worthwhile to keep arguing with someone who thinks we have a state “Elections Board”, a matter that has been discussed already. You are wearing out that clue-by-four trying to get the message across.

    If anyone else is curious, Mr. Fincher was paid by me, to be precise, by the Phillies 2008 Presidential campaign, at the previously agreed-to rate. While I gather National is paying at a higher rate, they are paying a management firm with several layers of expenses. It is my name on the nominating paper, and therefore my campaign is entitled to pay for petitioning. And we did.

    LPMass paid other petitioners out of its own pocket, using our Federal (FEC-filing account).

  64. Arthur Torrey Says:
    July 9, 2008 at 2:43 am

    Kevin once more shows his ignorance…
    ================
    No Art, this is not the case.
    I have repeatedly posted confirmed information.

    Nobody, not even you, is totally informed on this complex matter.
    Ignorant can be applied to virtually everybody, including yourself.

    These posting which I have participated in have resulted in people coming forward here, in one place, and begin assembling the information needed to properly deal with a situation.

    I find that if I surround myself with people who agree with me I get only the information that supports my ideas. This is bad because there is always the possibility that my ideas, or facts, are wrong. It is the dissenting opinion that raises questions that answering brings the full facts to light.

    It is among Libertarians that the dissenter is praised as the champion of change. It is ironic that among Libertarians any dissenter is vilified.

  65. George Phillies Says:
    July 9, 2008 at 3:25 am

    Art,

    I am not sure it is worthwhile to keep arguing with someone who thinks we have a state “Elections Board”, a matter that has been discussed already. You are wearing out that clue-by-four trying to get the message across.

    If anyone else is curious, Mr. Fincher was paid by me, to be precise, by the Phillies 2008 Presidential campaign, at the previously agreed-to rate. While I gather National is paying at a higher rate, they are paying a management firm with several layers of expenses. It is my name on the nominating paper, and therefore my campaign is entitled to pay for petitioning. And we did.

    LPMass paid other petitioners out of its own pocket, using our Federal (FEC-filing account).
    =======================
    Well George, that is factual and usefull information.

    It confirms, to a point, what I heard from another source. That you asked Gary Fincher to work on the petitioning in Mass while you were both in Denverfor the LPN Convention last May.

    Still this does not end the controversy, as usual tieing up one loose end finds another.

    You are a candidate and at the same time the Chair of the Mass LP, including the time you were in Denver last May. Wearing two or more hats at one time can present problems.

    So, let’s put some ducks in a row.

    Did Sean Haugh actually order anybody that is an official in the LP Mass, or is an official in the petitioning effort, to not hire Fincher? If he made any order then who and when? A clear time line is important.

  66. Arthur Torrey Says:
    July 9, 2008 at 2:43 am

    Kevin once more shows his ignorance…

    1. I’m no professional petitioner, but I’ve EASILY exceeded 15 – 20 LEGITIMATE sigs / hour on many occasions, by picking good locations. Even picking average ones, such as my local grocery store, I usually get about 1 in 20 customers to sign… Busier locations would get more sigs, and my understanding is that guys like Gary often set up in malls and other locations with much higher traffic.
    ================================
    Very good Art, have you done this for 16 hours a day for 11 days in a row?

    I am not saying getting 2,000 signatures in 11 days is impossible. I am saying it is unlikely and deserves closer inspection.

    To closer examine the work of someone whose production rate is extraordinary is a common business practice, especially in piece work like this petitioning. Such workers are examined to find if they are turning in quality work. They are also checked to see if they are falsifying their production records. This is just a good business practice and is in everyday use in many companies across the world.

    I have had my work checked, called quality assurance, because of my having the highest productivity in the company.

  67. I have not needed to sustain that rate for that length of time, however I feel quite confident that it would be doable. I also know that one part of the quality checking that LPMA DID do was to look at the signatures.

    It was reported here SEVERAL TIMES that examining Fincher’s petitions showed that the signatures were in clearly different handwriting styles, and thus presumably made by multiple different individuals (I don’t look for multiple pen types since I know that when I collect I have a pen tied to my clipboard that 99% of signers will use, and I’d imagine the pro’s do likewise…) While this does not prove that all sigs were made by the person that each says it was, it is STRONGLY indicative that it is the case, especially since signatures tend to have even more individual quirks than standard handwriting.

    Could the sigs be faked? In theory yes, but to do so convincingly would require as much, if not more, effort than getting them honestly…

    Of course you seem to be convinced that Fincher couldn’t possibly be honest, so as George says, I don’t know why I bother to try…

    ART

  68. “Gary, you have won nothing. Your brag of having won the “debate” is worth of Baghdad Bob.”

    I won the debate because you showed NOTHING of substance, and I did.

    “There is a term called the Preponderance of Evidence.”

    Exactly! And that goes on my side. It’s not difficult for me to believe that 14 out of 2,700 people would maliciously lie, expecially when browbeated by elections officials asking them, “Did you *really* mean to register Libertarian.” The “smoking gun” on my side is that the person with the MOSt to gain by accusing me of “tricking”, expressly said that I did no such thing.

    “There is a clear and long record of your convictions and admissions of guilt in courts.”

    You have facts incorrect. The only conviction I have is in the Santa Fe voting case, where we were arrested with the very politically motivated intent to keep us from voting third party. And even then, the charge was misapplied (what we did was NOT electioneering, ask the USPS if it’s ok to wear such clothing on postal property), newspapers in NM were SUPPORTIVE of us (Hobbs Sun editorial), THREE 2008 presidential candidates contributed to our defense fund they were so mutually outraged, and finally, the judge HIMSELF told me he thought I should appeal his decision. (then, you come along like a little piss ant thinking you have more wisdom than all the above, which is just not credible or plausible.

    The Miami thing was NOT a conviction, OR an admission of guilt. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

    All the other charges were dropped, or never formally leveled, for obvious lack of evidence. (Can you say “duh”?)

    ” You have openly written a confession of violating terms of probation.”

    Not really. Sounds like you’re rationalizing to me. The terms of the probation were violated by the STATE before it even began, by applying anyway even though they knewthere was no basis to it. The State, and in particular, the police who lied to get me prosecuted in the first place, could have stopped it anytime they wanted, and it wouldn’t have gotten to that point.

    And by the way, I’m not writing this for YOUR benefit (since I already know you don’t know how to process logic); I’m writing it for the benefit of the sensible folks reading, so that they can get to the rational heart of matters.

    ” Your petitioning effort in New Mexico was at best incompetent and at worst fraudulent and your failure here is well documented.”

    Well, for one thing, you don’t have the fact straight on what I was even doing in NM. I wasn’t petitioning; I was doing a voter registration drive. And it wasn’t incompetent; use Ron Bjornstad as my reference. And it wasn’t fraudulent, either; otherwise I would have been charged. (Just WHO did I try to “defraud”?) When the “fraud” noise first surfaced, I consulted with an attorney in NM, and he said that “fraud” has to be proven on the basis of intent to defraud someone. Now, I know that you know more than all attorneys in the land put together, but even YOU have to retract the “fraud” charge, since it has no legal basis.

    “Your counter to all of this has been that everybody but you is lieing,”

    No, I am saying that almost EVERYONE is telling the truth – Robert Lucero, Ron Bjornstad, Michael Morrison, my wife Karen, me, and (subtract 14 from 2,700) voters.

    Has math been one of your difficult subjects in your life?

    ” that people turn against you.”

    Clearly, they do. Look at yourself, whom I have never met (unless you’re using a fraudulent name and I don’t know about it). Is this not turning against me? Is there any basis for it? Have you seen me work? Some people on this thread have, and many times. What do they have to say about the quality of my work? Why are you even fraudulently posing as an authority anyway?

    ” Nothing but empty accusations. Your proofs are your own writings that such and such person did not catch you doing anything wrong or incompetent despite other having documented such actions on your part.”

    Nope, there is no documentation that I did anything wrong. The only people whom it can be proved actually came in contact with us, said that we did everything appropriately. Speaking of documentation, I provided documentation of the actual pitch I was using, and critics have as of yet to point to where in the pitch I went astray, and I even have video of my work in action. Watch the video and point to the documentation where I did something wrong. Unless you can do so, please shut up.

    “The preponderance of evidence weighs heavily against you, Your individual counters crumble when compared to your doumented record of competency and honesty.”

    No, as I said earlier, the preponderance of evidence is clearly on my side. While I was doing this typing, I actually used my mathematically ability to figure out that 2,700 minus 14 equals 2,686. I think 2,686 outnumbers 14, even if you prove (which no one has) that those 14 came into contact with me at all. Math, man, math!

    “The internet is the worst place for the poorly crafted defense you have offered which is filled with too many holes and draws too much attention.”

    Well, we could ask the people on this thread if my answers have been “poorly crafted”. Or, if you feel that you’re a more highly superior online writer than me (we could poll them on that point too), you can feel free to reveal your identity and call me at 207 450 5117 to arrange a face-to-face meeting where I can convince you that you are incorrect about a whole lot of things.

    ” Continue this and you will defeat yourself, if you have not already.”

    I don’t think so. What I’ve got on my side is that these things that you are saying never actually happened. That’s pretty strong, no matter who and how many people say things to the contrary.

    But I think you’ve already been defeated. You’re going out of your way to tarnish someone’s reputation, and I’m just sticking up for myself and the truth.

  69. I am honest (I’ve been accused actually of being “too honest for my own good”) and you can ask any one of my references. Does Richard Winger’s (known for 17 years) testimony of my honesty carry any weight?

  70. Well, looky who doesn’t like to abide by laws:

    http://media.www.iowastatedaily.com/media/storage/paper818/news/2006/09/19/News/Police.Blotter-2283836.shtml

    Police Blotter
    Issue date: 9/19/06 Section: News

    – Kevin O’Connell, 22, 147 Campus Ave., was arrested and charged with public intoxication. He was transported to the Story County Sheriff’s Office.

  71. Rap sheet:

    A former Great Falls restaurateur was sentenced to a year in federal prison on Monday, following his guilty plea in February to credit card fraud.

    Kevin O’Connell, former co-owner of the Indigo Lounge, was also ordered to pay $17,088 in restitution, according to U.S. District Judge Sam Haddon.

    O’Connell traveled to Great Falls from Buffalo, N.Y., for the hearing and was apologetic and tearful in his statement to Haddon.

    “I’m not here to ask for forgiveness and I’m not going to ask for your mercy, either,” O’Connell said. “I stole. I can’t think of a more cowardly act to do.”

    O’Connell and two business partners opened Indigo Lounge in the Lobby Bar building in October 2003, where O’Connell was also the chef.

    In March 2005, a few credit card companies and patrons noticed that they were charged for their meals, but in many instances charged an additional $3,000 to $5,000 beyond what was owed.

    In May 2005, a local businessman paid for lunch at the restaurant. Over the next month, O’Connell made nine unauthorized charges — totaling $30,000 — on the man’s card.

    “I want to apologize to all the people I took money from,” O’Connell said. “These are the people that patronized my restaurant. I betrayed their trust by taking their money.”

    The total dollar amount Haddon considered in sentencing O’Connell was $44,209.

    O’Connell’s attorney, Herbert Greenman of Buffalo, N.Y., asked Haddon to consider placing O’Connell on six to 12 months of house arrest or community arrest, because O’Connell is now the head chef in the family-run restaurant in Buffalo. He said if O’Connell is not working at the restaurant, the business is destined to fail.

    Greenman tried to explain O’Connell’s actions as being someone who wanted to be successful, just as his father had been a successful businessman in Buffalo.

    “He wanted to own a restaurant. He thought he could do it on his own and eventually he was inept,” Greenman said.

    The restaurant closed in June 2005.

    He explained that O’Connell had no previous business experience and didn’t seek out much assistance as he started his business. When he started to falter and couldn’t pay back his loans, Greenman said his client began to steal.

    “He considered failure as not an option,” Greenman said. “No one is more disappointed in him than himself.”

    Haddon rejected Greenman’s request to put O’Connell on house arrest, but did say he was impressed that prior to sentencing, he received 35 letters of support for O’Connell.

    O’Connell was facing up to 10 years in prison, but because of his guilty plea and other guidelines used in the federal court system, Haddon had to decide between six months to a year in prison.

    Nevertheless, Haddon said O’Connell’s behavior “involved a pattern of deliberate fraud. It involved a number of people.”

  72. Gary Says:
    July 9, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    The Miami thing was NOT a conviction, OR an admission of guilt. You don’t know what you’re talking about.

    All the other charges were dropped, or never formally leveled, for obvious lack of evidence. (Can you say “duh”?)

    ” You have openly written a confession of violating terms of probation.”

    Not really. Sounds like you’re rationalizing to me. The terms of the probation were violated by the STATE before it even began, by applying anyway even though they knewthere was no basis to it. The State, and in particular, the police who lied to get me prosecuted in the first place, could have stopped it anytime they wanted, and it wouldn’t have gotten to that point.

    And by the way, I’m not writing this for YOUR benefit (since I already know you don’t know how to process logic); I’m writing it for the benefit of the sensible folks reading, so that they can get to the rational heart of matters.
    ===============================
    Okay Gary, let’s see how much I don’t know and how less than truthful you have been.

    You were charged with five counts, we will review them from bottom to top.

    Miami Dade County Court Criminal Case #F91045393

    Charge # 5: Disorderkly conduct – misdemeamor – no action taken

    Charge # 4: Trespassing – misdemeanor – no action taken

    Charge # 3: Resisting officer with violence Felony – no action taken

    Charge # 2: Resisting officer with violence FELONY Probation

    Charge # 1″ Battery of a officer FELONY Probation

    You pleaded guilty to charges #1 and #2 which carry a maximum sentence of five years. This was a plea bargain which I suspect is why the last three charges were not prosecuted, a common way of doing things. Since you pleaded guilty, which is a conviction, you were given one years probation rather than the five year maximum sentence. This means you pleaded guilty to the charges and that Gary is a conviction, two felony convictions in this case.

    On you probation you were allowed out of state to work in Alabama. Part of the terms was that you file monthly papers with the Court. You have admitted that you conspired with a fellow LP member to move out of the area, mail your papers to the LP member who would then mail the papers giving them the required postmark of Alabama as if you mailed them yourself from Alabama.

    So Gary you have pleaded guilty to two felonies, which makes for two felony convictions and you violated the terms of your parole by moving and not notifying the Court. Worse you intentionally conspired to give the false impression to the Court that you were in compliance and still in Alabama.

    Like I said Gary, the internet is a bad place to post either half truths or lies. People can document things much better than other people can lie.

    If you want real respect from people earn it and do that Libertarian thing, take personal responsibility for you actions. So now you are documented with two felony convictions and a parole violation both of which you stated you did not have.

    So reards your “Can you say “duh”?” , sure I can. Can you say holy sh*t?

  73. Keith Says:
    July 10, 2008 at 12:54 am
    ======================
    Keith,
    At least you are trying, now try some investigative research on Gary Fincher.

    My name is a common one but I am not the same Kevin O’Connell in the article you posted. I have never been in Great Falls or Buffalo in my life. In fact I have never in my life been arrested.

    To the best of my recollection I have one speeding ticket some time back in the 1980s. After that I got one ticket for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. I do remember a parking ticket for an expired parking meter in the early 1990s, did not get back fast enough, learned to carry more quarters.

    Rap sheet:

    A former Great Falls restaurateur was sentenced to a year in federal prison on Monday, following his guilty plea in February to credit card fraud.

    Kevin O’Connell, former co-owner of the Indigo Lounge, was also ordered to pay $17,088 in restitution, according to U.S. District Judge Sam Haddon.

    O’Connell traveled to Great Falls from Buffalo, N.Y., for the hearing and was apologetic and tearful in his statement to Haddon.

    “I’m not here to ask for forgiveness and I’m not going to ask for your mercy, either,” O’Connell said. “I stole. I can’t think of a more cowardly act to do.”

    O’Connell and two business partners opened Indigo Lounge in the Lobby Bar building in October 2003, where O’Connell was also the chef.

    In March 2005, a few credit card companies and patrons noticed that they were charged for their meals, but in many instances charged an additional $3,000 to $5,000 beyond what was owed.

    In May 2005, a local businessman paid for lunch at the restaurant. Over the next month, O’Connell made nine unauthorized charges — totaling $30,000 — on the man’s card.

    “I want to apologize to all the people I took money from,” O’Connell said. “These are the people that patronized my restaurant. I betrayed their trust by taking their money.”

    The total dollar amount Haddon considered in sentencing O’Connell was $44,209.

    O’Connell’s attorney, Herbert Greenman of Buffalo, N.Y., asked Haddon to consider placing O’Connell on six to 12 months of house arrest or community arrest, because O’Connell is now the head chef in the family-run restaurant in Buffalo. He said if O’Connell is not working at the restaurant, the business is destined to fail.

    Greenman tried to explain O’Connell’s actions as being someone who wanted to be successful, just as his father had been a successful businessman in Buffalo.

    “He wanted to own a restaurant. He thought he could do it on his own and eventually he was inept,” Greenman said.

    The restaurant closed in June 2005.

    He explained that O’Connell had no previous business experience and didn’t seek out much assistance as he started his business. When he started to falter and couldn’t pay back his loans, Greenman said his client began to steal.

    “He considered failure as not an option,” Greenman said. “No one is more disappointed in him than himself.”

    Haddon rejected Greenman’s request to put O’Connell on house arrest, but did say he was impressed that prior to sentencing, he received 35 letters of support for O’Connell.

    O’Connell was facing up to 10 years in prison, but because of his guilty plea and other guidelines used in the federal court system, Haddon had to decide between six months to a year in prison.

    Nevertheless, Haddon said O’Connell’s behavior “involved a pattern of deliberate fraud. It involved a number of people.”

  74. Keith Says:
    July 10, 2008 at 12:51 am
    Well, looky who doesn’t like to abide by laws:
    ====================
    Missed again Keith. This time you are in Iowa with 22 year old male named Kevin O’Connell. This is unliky to be the same Kevin O’Connell you found in New York.

    O’Connell is a name of Irish origan, Kevin is a common name among people of Irish decent. If you have not nopticed New York is up to it’s ass in the dammmed Irish.

    “All right, we’ll give some land to the niggers and the chinks, but we DON’T WANT THE IRISH.” Olson Johnson – Blazing Saddles.

    =================================

    http://media.www.iowastatedaily.com/media/storage/paper818/news/2006/09/19/News/Police.Blotter-2283836.shtml

    Police Blotter
    Issue date: 9/19/06 Section: News

    – Kevin O’Connell, 22, 147 Campus Ave., was arrested and charged with public intoxication. He was transported to the Story County Sheriff’s Office.

  75. Gary Says:
    July 9, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    I am honest (I’ve been accused actually of being “too honest for my own good”) and you can ask any one of my references. Does Richard Winger’s (known for 17 years) testimony of my honesty carry any weight?
    =====================
    I have to answer this with all honesty.

    So Richard Winger has known you for 17 years and as offered testimony of your honesty. Fine, but other people do not know how much about you Winger really knows. It is a good reference for getting a job and such but does not make anyone a citizen above suspicion.

    Still regardless of who testifies of your, or anybody’s, honesty such testimony does not place anyone above inspection. Anyone’s past is subject to review and judgment when they apply to work for others be that as a paid worker of volunteer. Also others will form their own opinions as to the applicants honesty or other character traits. In your case Sean Haugh has certainly found you lacking good character and does not want you working for the LP, that is his right. I also find his actions questionable and are probably wrong but his is a separate subject from the subject of your integrity.

    What I have put up for review here are not the opinions of others but the facts, incidents that have happened and are documented. For instance Phillies wrote that it was he that hired you directly to work for the Phillies campaign. I had heard this previously but had not been able to confirm it to my satisfaction. Now it is confirmed and I have commented on it.

    You have repeatedly denied the facts solely on the idea that you do not consider them to have been justified. Justified or not you did these things, pleaded guilty to crimes or been convicted of them. Regardless of whether you think that the Court first violated terms of probation that is no excuse for you do violate terms of probation. If the court did first violate terms of probation then you are just as wrong as they were.

    Time to come clean Gary. Yes the petition drive in New Mexico was really a voter registration drive. You have offered scenarios where a private investigator intimidated those he interviewed. But you offer no witness of an investigation of this, just some theory. It was found by both the government and the LP Private Investigator that the people were intentionally misled into thinking there were not registering to vote as Libertarian.

    One thing that is undeniable is that of the petitions you turned in there were a number of false voter Social Security numbers entered. Somebody took those petitions and intentionally filled in made up Social Security numbers, so one of two things happened.

    One, someone took a phone book and started putting down addresses and signatures, then made up false Social Secuirty numbers.

    Two, someone failed to have the voters to properly fill in their Social Security numbers. So instead of dumping the forms they made up fake numbers and improperly put them into the form.

    You were there Gary, tell the truth about what happened with those Social Security numbers.

  76. Keith Says:
    July 10, 2008 at 12:51 am

    Well, looky who doesn’t like to abide by laws:
    ============================

    Keith,

    I have encouraged you to continue researching people rather than just take what they, or others, say about them.

    I have also encouraged you to check out Gary Fincher for yourself.

    Now I must encourage yu to do research Fincher responsibly.

    There is currently a man with the name of Gary Fincher who is involved with a “sex for grades” scandal that is not the Gary Fincher that has been the subject of posting here. This other Gary Fincehr is a whistle blower rather than a participant. I checked this out rather than just blindly post articles of people who happen to have the same name. Just searching for Gary Fincher will turn up other people than the Fincher we are discussing here.

    Unless your name is remarkably unique I am sure you can find lots of articles where people with the same name as you have been arrested and convicted.

    So be skeptical, check people out but do so responsibly.

  77. I think that people calling Gary and Andy “whiners” should shut their pie holes, or I think that they should pound the pavement for a nice 12 hour day in 90 degree weather, and give pro-freedom soundbites to over 1,000 people that they ask to sign a ballot access petition. It’s not Gary who’s a whiner: he simply wants what’s his due, THE WORK REPUTATION THAT HE EARNED.

    The truth always works its way out in the end. How many people here have a stomach for the truth, or the long walk towards finding it? The truth is messy, and difficult to obtain. Most people can’t be bothered.
    …This is also why nominating petitions don’t get signed. …Thanks to the people who do their research, and who dig for the painful truth.

    The “libertarians” who take the word of the State (that would just as soon incompetently erase us from the ballot forever) make me sick.

  78. Exit Iraq Says:
    July 16, 2008 at 9:40 am
    ======================

    Well that was a lot of words that said nothing.

    I think that people calling Gary and Andy “whiners” should shut their pie holes, or I think that they should pound the pavement for a nice 12 hour day in 90 degree weather, and give pro-freedom soundbites to over 1,000 people that they ask to sign a ballot access petition. It’s not Gary who’s a whiner: he simply wants what’s his due, THE WORK REPUTATION THAT HE EARNED.

    The truth always works its way out in the end. How many people here have a stomach for the truth, or the long walk towards finding it? The truth is messy, and difficult to obtain. Most people can’t be bothered.
    =========================
    Are you one of the people that can’t be bothered? Can you investigate for yourself, or do you just blindly take the words of others?

    Don’t take my statements of Gary Fincher on just my word. Check them out for yourself. Then compare the facts to Gary’s statements, I expect you will find Gary makes a lot of conflicting statements about events.

    So what are you, the big dog that leads the pack or the bitch on a leash?

    ===========================

    …This is also why nominating petitions don’t get signed. …Thanks to the people who do their research, and who dig for the painful truth.

    The “libertarians” who take the word of the State (that would just as soon incompetently erase us from the ballot forever) make me sick.

  79. Just as a FWIW, dept. We have started the process of delivering the nominating papers for the entire drive to the 251 cities and towns in the state for validation. We sorted them all last Thursday, and spent the last few days either hand delivering or mailing the petitions (mostly a function of where volunteers lived, and the number of sigs for each town).

    I personally put over 400 miles on my bike delivering petitions to 24 cities and towns – NOT a fun process, as much of it was in heavy traffic, and Mass. is a mandatory beer cooler (aka helmet) state

    As far as I know, all the petitions were either delivered or mailed as of today. Several towns have finished processing them already, I’ve heard from 10 of the 25 towns that my GF and I delivered, five of them account for about 1,150 verified sigs, I don’t know how may we have from the others.

    We know where Gary was working, and thus what towns most of his signatures are from, and will be able to tell from validity rates what sort of numbers he managed, and how they compared to the rates in other towns… I’d expect that we will know more in another week or so.

    ART

  80. LOL, sounds like Kevin is doing a lot of squirming and rationalizing and trying to “get out of” the spotlight based on his past crimes. I’ll take Keith’s word over Kevin’s, given that Kevin is all over the board in his accusations, and can’t stay consistent, as I have done.

    My story stays the same: can Kevin say that?

    Duh, no.

  81. Kevin says:

    “You were there Gary, tell the truth about what happened with those Social Security numbers.”

    I already told the truth – it’s just that you weren’t listening (or reading). You claim to be such a good researcher, but you have failed at this one simple task – to find an answer that is posted recently on these blogs.

    That seems pretty inept to me.

    What’s wrong with minding your own business, and getting a life? I’m doing that – why can’t you?

    Why does your life revolve around making false (and old) accusations against people? That speaks volumes to me.

    I don’t even go around doing that with George Bush, and the stuff against him is all bad and true! I’ve got better things to do with my time.

    So excuse me, I’ve got some ballot access petitions to get signed….

  82. Gary Says:
    July 19, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    LOL, sounds like Kevin is doing a lot of squirming and rationalizing and trying to “get out of” the spotlight based on his past crimes. I’ll take Keith’s word over Kevin’s, given that Kevin is all over the board in his accusations, and can’t stay consistent, as I have done.

    My story stays the same: can Kevin say that?

    Duh, no.
    ———————–
    Gary,

    As you read before Keith never said I committed any crime. All he did was find articles where someone with the same name as me got arrested. He wrote in such a way as to infer this was me but in now way made any positive statement that this was me. So there is no “Keith’s word over Kevin’s” on this subject.

    Some advice, if you got nothing do not make a lot of baseless noise and prove it.

  83. Gary Says:
    July 19, 2008 at 11:27 pm

    Kevin says:

    “You were there Gary, tell the truth about what happened with those Social Security numbers.”

    I already told the truth – it’s just that you weren’t listening (or reading). You claim to be such a good researcher, but you have failed at this one simple task – to find an answer that is posted recently on these blogs.
    ================================
    Gary,
    I never failed in my research, I read your previous post. Your post was written in such as way as to be intentionally vague. I only have given you the opportunity to show the integrity others claim you have and tell the whole truth.

    Previously you on this site you wrote “but I did make a strategic blunder on that drive regarding SSNs on the forms”.

    However on http://www.independentpoliticalreport.com/2008/07/another-veteran-petition-circulator-fired-and-blackballed-by-sean-haugh/

    You wrote “The SSN issue was true, but with extenuating circumstances, namely state chair Knight illegally tried to convert an “optional” field ont the forms into a “mandatory” field, in an attempt to screw me over on pay ($4-6 per registration) on the bona fide registrations I’d collected. I was thus forced to choose a bad option from a bad array of options, with no good option in the mix. I chose an option that ended up making thiings worse, and quickly admitted it and tried my best to fix it and cooperate with the national party to engage in damage control.”

    My interpretation of your intentionally vague statement is that the false Social Security Numbers were filled in by you in order to get paid for signatures that would otherwise be invalidated. I did not psot my interpreation and gave you the oportuntiy to cealry state exactly what happened. You once again sidestepped the truth.

    =====================================

    That seems pretty inept to me.

    What’s wrong with minding your own business, and getting a life? I’m doing that – why can’t you?
    =============================
    Kevin replies;
    You are the one tha tinitated posting this sistuation on the internet. You invited both scruitany and comment. Be careful what what you ask for, you just might get it.
    ===========================

    Why does your life revolve around making false (and old) accusations against people? That speaks volumes to me.
    ===============================
    Kevin replies:
    I have substantiated my statements, which is more than you have done.

    ========================================

    I don’t even go around doing that with George Bush, and the stuff against him is all bad and true! I’ve got better things to do with my time.

    So excuse me, I’ve got some ballot access petitions to get signed….

  84. Keith wrote:

    “My interpretation of your intentionally vague statement is that the false Social Security Numbers were filled in by you in order to get paid for signatures that would otherwise be invalidated.”

    Not true.

    The terms of the deal prior to our coming to NM was that we would get paid for all bona-fide voter registrations – with or without SSNs.

    Knight’s noise about not accepting VRs without SSNs filled in (which only applied to Karen and me and no other registrars – why?) was extra-contractual.

    Breach of contract, my friend, breach of contract.

    So who was in the wrong – Knight, or us?

  85. Correction:

    Kevin wrote:

    “My interpretation of your intentionally vague statement is that the false Social Security Numbers were filled in by you in order to get paid for signatures that would otherwise be invalidated.”

    Not true.

    The terms of the deal prior to our coming to NM was that we would get paid for all bona-fide voter registrations – with or without SSNs.

    Knight’s noise about not accepting VRs without SSNs filled in (which only applied to Karen and me and no other registrars – why?) was extra-contractual.

    Breach of contract, my friend, breach of contract.

    So who was in the wrong – Knight, or us?

  86. Kevin replies;
    You are the one tha tinitated posting this sistuation on the internet. You invited both scruitany and comment. Be careful what what you ask for, you just might get it.

    I didn’t invite false comments…but I’m sure that’s a concept difficult to grasp for you. Accuracy and falsehoods – “Ah, same thing!”

    And no, I wasn’t the one who initially posted this…I was asked if it was ok by someone else to post and I said I guess so.

  87. Kevin replies:
    I have substantiated my statements, which is more than you have done.

    No, you have it EXACTLY backwards.

    You ignore every fact I lay out, most notably the fact that I NEVER IN MY LIFE told a voter that a voter registration was a “petition”. I figure that would be an easy fact for someone to understand. Andy understands it. Ron understands it. Michael Morrison understands it. Even the elections bureau coordinator understands it. So the million dollar questiion is…why can’t you?

  88. Gary

    Correction:

    Kevin wrote:

    “My interpretation of your intentionally vague statement is that the false Social Security Numbers were filled in by you in order to get paid for signatures that would otherwise be invalidated.”

    Not true.

    The terms of the deal prior to our coming to NM was that we would get paid for all bona-fide voter registrations – with or without SSNs.

    Knight’s noise about not accepting VRs without SSNs filled in (which only applied to Karen and me and no other registrars – why?) was extra-contractual.

    Breach of contract, my friend, breach of contract.

    So who was in the wrong – Knight, or us?
    ================================

    If you are saying that improper, or in error, actions by others justifies any actions by you then you are wrong.

    If you and/or your wife wrote in fake Social Security Numbers for any reason then you were wrong.

    Kevin

  89. 86 Gary:

    Kevin replies;
    You are the one tha tinitated posting this sistuation on the internet. You invited both scruitany and comment. Be careful what what you ask for, you just might get it.

    I didn’t invite false comments…but I’m sure that’s a concept difficult to grasp for you. Accuracy and falsehoods – “Ah, same thing!”

    And no, I wasn’t the one who initially posted this…I was asked if it was ok by someone else to post and I said I guess so.
    ================================
    Your posting here is an invitation for others to research and post regardless of who made the first post.

    Kevin

  90. 87 Gary

    Kevin replies:
    I have substantiated my statements, which is more than you have done.

    No, you have it EXACTLY backwards.

    You ignore every fact I lay out, most notably the fact that I NEVER IN MY LIFE told a voter that a voter registration was a “petition”. I figure that would be an easy fact for someone to understand. Andy understands it. Ron understands it. Michael Morrison understands it. Even the elections bureau coordinator understands it. So the million dollar questiion is…why can’t you?
    =========================
    It is absolutely clear that people who signed the voter registration forms presented by you and your wife were given a false impression by you and your wife as to what they were signing.

    It is clear to any reader that they thought they were signing a petition or some other type of paper.

    Kevin

  91. on July 6, 2008 at 10:30 pm18 Kevin O’Connell
    Paul,

    If Fincher breaks a law or rule, which by his own words he did

    Can you read, Kevin? In my post, I said that I got arrested for petitioning on postal property, at a time when it was legal to do so, in carrying out a state signature requirement. So why don’t you characterize it the way it really is?: I got arrested and prosecuted for COMPLYING with the law, not for BREAKING it.

  92. Kevin wrote:

    It is absolutely clear that people who signed the voter registration forms presented by you and your wife were given a false impression by you and your wife as to what they were signing.

    It is clear to any reader that they thought they were signing a petition or some other type of paper.

    Kevin
    —————–
    How do you figure that saying, “The Libertarians need more voter registrations; will you fill one out?”, is giving people a “false impression”? Perhaps this is your admission that YOU would have taken such a statement as to mean instead, “we need more petitions” (even with all the colored-laminated notices on our table referring to our voter registration drive), I like to think most other people actually listened and knew the difference between a voter registration form and a petition.

    Keven, you can only speak for yourself, not for others. Not many people I relate the story to say that they infer my pitch to mean I wanted a petition signed, but I “get” and accept that you would have.

    Gary

  93. on September 5, 2008 at 3:00 am Gary Fincher wrote;
    on July 6, 2008 at 10:30 pm18 Kevin O’Connell
    Paul,
    If Fincher breaks a law or rule, which by his own words he did
    ===================================================
    Can you read, Kevin? In my post, I said that I got arrested for petitioning on postal property, at a time when it was legal to do so, in carrying out a state signature requirement. So why don’t you characterize it the way it really is?: I got arrested and prosecuted for COMPLYING with the law, not for BREAKING it.
    =======================
    Gary,
    More of your attempted misdirection.

    The parts of what I wrote that you clipped out said:

    “If Fincher breaks a law or rule, which by his own words he did it is not surprising that you think it is okay if he supports your position. Unfortunately this leaves it to his judgment, not yours, and leaves him open to disobey a rule or law that you agree with.
    You have failed to consider, at least I hope so, that a person working on your behalf is subject to third party scrutiny. Such a person, in this case a petitioner, should be above suspicion. Fincher’s actions in this one case he admits to revokes his position of being above suspicion.
    Further Fincher agreed to a plea bargain which meant he gave his word to obey the terms of the agreement. Here he admits to breaking his word.
    As a petition gatherer for the LP Fincher’s past action cast doubts on his petition signatures. It would be wise to not hire such a person.”

    As for your statement “that I got arrested for petitioning on postal property, at a time when it was legal to do so, in carrying out a state signature requirement. So why don’t you characterize it the way it really is?: I got arrested and prosecuted for COMPLYING with the law, not for BREAKING it.”

    The arrests that post referred to were:

    Miami Dade County Court Criminal Case #F91045393
    Charge # 5: Disorderly conduct – misdemeanor – no action taken
    Charge # 4: Trespassing – misdemeanor – no action taken
    Charge # 3: Resisting officer with violence Felony – no action taken
    Charge # 2: Resisting officer with violence FELONY Probation
    Charge # 1: Battery of a officer FELONY Probation

    You pled guilty to two felony charges #1 and # 2, no charges of petitioning on USPS property.

    You plea bargained a probation which you them violated with the help of another LP member.

    Kevin

  94. on September 5, 2008 at 3:07 am Gary Fincher wrote;

    on September 5, 2008 at 3:07 am
    Kevin wrote:
    It is absolutely clear that people who signed the voter registration forms presented by you and your wife were given a false impression by you and your wife as to what they were signing.
    It is clear to any reader that they thought they were signing a petition or some other type of paper.
    Kevin
    —————–
    How do you figure that saying, “The Libertarians need more voter registrations; will you fill one out?”, is giving people a “false impression”?
    ========================================
    I do not figure that. Since the people you solicited called the Elections Board and complained that they were misled indicates that you said more than “The Libertarians need more voter registrations; will you fill one out?”.

    Also a Private Investigator hired by the LP to interview signers and exonerate you reported back that the people you got to sign said they were misled into signing those forms. Yes, you said this was only because the PI was so intimidating on the phone that these people readily agreed to lie about it, your claim that the private investigator, an agent of the New Mexico LP, doing this is not credible.

    You have already admitted here to filling in false SSNs on the forms so that you could try and get them accepted and get money for these otherwise rejected forms. If you forged SSNs for your own advantage then telling a verbal lie to get money for their signatures is not a far step for you.

    Oh yes, you said you were justified in filling in those false SSNs. That one of the LP people were trying to cheat you out of petitioning money. Well you only get paid for validated forms and without those numbers those forms would not count for the LP and you should not be paid, no one was trying to cheat you out of any money.

    So you say you listened to someone who told you that the space for the SSN need not be filled in. If you really are the great “Libertarian” you claim to be then you know it is your “personal responsibility” to get such things right, not just listen to someone else.

    You conspired and carried out with a fellow LP member to submit false probation forms. This gave the appearance you were in one place when in reality you had moved to another state. This was a falsehood, a lie.

    You have shown and documented that whenever you find it to your advantage you lie. Such a liar is not desirable as a petitioner and Sean Haugh was entirely justified in banning you.

    Kevin

    ==============================

    Perhaps this is your admission that YOU would have taken such a statement as to mean instead, “we need more petitions” (even with all the colored-laminated notices on our table referring to our voter registration drive), I like to think most other people actually listened and knew the difference between a voter registration form and a petition.
    Keven, you can only speak for yourself, not for others. Not many people I relate the story to say that they infer my pitch to mean I wanted a petition signed, but I “get” and accept that you would have.
    Gary

  95. Who exactly is Kevin O’Connell? He certainly is a know-nothing, regarding the LP ballot access process.

    When Kevin claims that someone who “disregards rules” should not be hired by the Libertarian Party, he is making so many errors in judgement that he should never be listened to again. I’ll list a few of the errors in judgement that are implicit in his comments:

    1) The “disregard for rules” that had led to legal trouble for Gary was his violation of a limit on free speech. This unconstitutional limit on free speech has been challenged many times at the Supreme Court, usually by libertarians. The disallowal of petitioning in public places costs the LP several thousand dollars each election cycle. Libertarian petitioners like Gary should be treated as heroes for challenging unlawful “laws” that forbid free speech.
    2) Without such “disregard for the rules” the Libertarian Party would NEVER be on the ballot, in any state that ballot access is not easy in. Kevin’s argument essentially calls for the operational death of the Libertarian Party.
    3) Failing to hire someone because they undertake acts of civil disobedience on their own dime would be pure cowardice, and nothing else. This is EXACTLY like arguing that Rosa Parks should not be hired, because she failed to give up her seat for a white man.

    Anyone here who sides with Kevin O’Connell is not actually a libertarian at all. I’m happy if they want to vote libertarian, and I’m happy if they want to champion us, and I’m happy if they agree with us on some issues, but they are not “libertarian” in any meaningful sense of the word.

    …Especially not while they are espousing authoritarian arguments like the ones put forth by Kevin O’Connell on this page.

    Moreover, dredging up the past (which has already been definitively decided in favor of Fincher, on each issue raised by Kevin), is a SERIOUS waste of time for all involved. What would Fincher et al be doing with their time if they were not putting out fires started by Kevin? I’ll tell you: They would be in the street performing ballot access work that would be placing the Libertarian Party and libertarian initiatives on the ballot and thus making the LP a more viable option, and moving us closer to individual liberty.

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