Steve G.

Angela Keaton threatened for doing her job on LNC

In Libertarian on June 23, 2008 at 10:50 pm

From Angela Keaton’s blog:

Mr. Karlan:

Given that neither you or your mentor M Carling have a law degree nor access to significant funds, you might not wish to continue making threats that you will use state action to silence a committee member who dares to ask questions or report to the membership.

Any further threats of such will be forwarded to my family’s attorney.

Thank you.

  1. I wish she would publish the threats.

    It appears the retard caucus can’t handle dissent.

  2. disinter – I think you should start calling that caucus the Defraud Caucus. It kinda rhymes with your name, is less ugly, and entirely accurate.

  3. Defraud, deform, retard…. I kinda like them all.

  4. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, Third Edition, 1994, “First Time In Paperback,” the definition of retard is: to cause to move or develop slowly; delay or impede.

    That’s the Reform Caucus silver bullet for the Libertarian Party and libertarian message. Develop the libertarian message slowly. Call it the “Retard Silver Bullet.”

    The “Retard Silver Bullet” has been fired. We’ll see how far it flies.

    I don’t have a problem with moderate Libertarians working to build the party. It’s when they use the excuse that Libertarian Party members with views as radical as Ron Paul are retarding Libertarian Party growth and must be exterminated that turns me against them.

    Angela Keaton was a top LNC vote getter. Got my vote. Has my support.

    I also support working with genuine big tent Retards; but not the fake big tent Retards.

  5. I used to fire “retard” pellets on the range in JROTC in high school. we called them that because we loaded them into the air rifles backwards. They tended to hit the target paper and bounce off with a paper “whap”.

    That’s about the same here–no power, and when it hits something solid, it falls apart.

    Angela has my support as well.

  6. One way to defeat the reformers is to simply BE radical — in public.

    Get out there, be loud and colorful, take controversial and “scary” positions, and whenever the media or public are looking your way, be sure to mention “I’m a Libertarian! Smash the state! This is what Libertarians look and sound like! Smash the welfare/warfare state! Wanna join our party and help smash the state?”

    The reformers will be so busy with “damage control,” they won’t be able to “reform” the party,🙂

  7. What’s wrong with reform?

    I’d like to re-form the party.

  8. The better way is to simply get out there and take those controversial positions, but preface them with, “As our Presidential candidate/Chair/etc., Bob Barr/Bill Redpath/etc. advocates” controversial position XXX, especially to the media.

    Then they’ll either have to agree, pulling them to the radical point of view, or be exposed as frauds….

  9. Any anti-libertarians looking at LNC comments lately, must be rubbing their hands in glee. Non-libertarians are finding vindication that the kooks and clowns are fighting each other and not building a libertarian movement
    they’d like to join any time soon. From having served on the LNC, I can tell you that there are ways to dissent which win and which lose. Profanity and vulgarity, as epitomized by disinter, turn off virtually everyone. Threatening to throw people off of natcom do likewise. Polite dissent, allowing everyone to air their views, and then deciding to move on with whatever has been decided is the best way to build a movement. I suggest that those, of whatever “faction”, who preach the politics of destruction and crushing their enemies seek to join other organizations more to their liking.

  10. Do anti-libertarians look at LNC comments? I doubt most LP members look at LNC comments – and that has probably been the problem all along.

  11. Angela is doing a great job on the LNC.

  12. Roscoe – this may have been buried in an old thread – I was offline a few days

    paulie Says:
    June 23, 2008 at 8:43 pm edit

    With all respect, how do you reconcile “it’s a major client for work” with your thinking that the LP and all political parties are engaged in evil activities?

    Where did I say I thought so?

    And, if I do, it’s simply a matter of dealing with reality. For instance, I may not like that the government owns the roads but I have to deal with it.

    Still, I never recall saying what you seem to think I said.

  13. Paulie, I’m sorry if I misconstrued the following comments you made
    (June 19)
    “…all sides attempt…to control their fellow men by theft and regulation”
    and “political parties – even the LP – are the antithesis of a free heart and mind.”
    I took this to mean that you believed political parties, including the LP, are engaged in evil activities. And I wondered how, if that was your belief,
    you could engage in work – you are a paid petitioner, I believe? – that substantially contributed to the LP’s ability to put candidates on the ballot who would sustain activities which “are the antithesis of a free heart and mind.” I don’t see it quite the same as having to use the government roads because you have no practical choice. You would, apparently, have a wide choice in clients or other occupations.

  14. “With all respect, how do you reconcile “it’s a major client for work” with your thinking that the LP and all political parties are engaged in evil activities?”

    “Where did I say I thought so?”

    The LP is in reality a minor player in the world of ballot access.

    For example, one state wide Constitutional Amendment ballot initiative in California requires more signatures than the Libertarian Party currently needs to get their Presidential ticket on the ballot in all 50 states and DC.

    Add up all of the various state & local initiatives, referenda, and recalls, and then add up all of the other candidates running as Greens, Constitution Party, independents, Democrats and Republicans (in some states they require signatures to be in the primaries), etc… Then factor in (non-Libertarian Party) voter registration drives and plebicite petitions (non-binding). The Libertarian Party is actually just one small piece of a very large pie.

  15. “For example, one state wide Constitutional Amendment ballot initiative in California requires more signatures than the Libertarian Party currently needs to get their Presidential ticket on the ballot in all 50 states and DC.”

    The last time I checked, California requires 694,000 (and something) valid signatures to place a Constitutional Amendment initiative on the ballot.

    The Libertarian Party doesn’t need anywhere near that many valid signatures to get their Presidential ticket on the ballot when you consider the fact that there are several states where they’ve been able to maintain ballot status without petitioning.

    A statute initiative in California requires 433,000 (and something) valid signatures.

    Now consider that (for example) there could be say 2 Constitutional Amendments and 3 Statute initiatives circulating in California at the same time. This right here would be a FAR BIGGER job than getting the Libertarian Party on the ballot nationally for a Presidential election.

    Now consider that there are 24 states that have state wide initiatives & referenda (although a few of them have made it so difficult to do them that they rarely happen). Washington DC has initiative & referenda. There are several states that don’t have initiative & referenda at the state level, but they do have it at the local level (Texas is one example). There are 3 states that don’t have initiatives but to have referenda (although they are pretty rare). There are 18 states that have a recall process (although some of these states have made them so difficult to do that they rarely happen).

    The Libertarian Party is small potatoes.

  16. For example, one state wide Constitutional Amendment ballot initiative in California requires more signatures than the Libertarian Party currently needs to get their Presidential ticket on the ballot in all 50 states and DC.

    Probably because you could actually get someting changed with a properly worded amendment, whereas you won’t get shit changed running as a libertarian because the system will ensure you won’t win.

    Which makes me think that ballot initiative might be the way to go.

  17. Well being in an initiative state, I would say it’s a mixed bag… At least in Mass, an initiative is an even tougher job than a ballot petition – it takes at least two rounds of petitioning, with large numbers each time, and there is this nasty rule about “No stray marks” on the petition that makes the job even harder (a greasy finger-print in the margin, or someone trying to start a stuck pen can invalidate an entire sheet of signatures)…

    But we WILL have ballot initiatives in Mass. this year to repeal the state income tax, and to decriminalize possessing an ounce or less of marijuana… (and also one to ban Greyhound dog racing) Of course even if an initiative DOES pass, there is is no guarantee that the legislators won’t over-ride it and ignore the “vote of the peepul…”

    ART

  18. Art– you’ve managed to just strike an especially sore political spot with me.

    I hope to heck you’re not supporting the ban on Greyhound racing.

    Greyhound racing is not in itself cruel. Ask my gang– Surf especially loves to run just for fun. My Whippet Apollo has never laid eyes on a track– but he too loves to race like the wind.

    I will grant that some tracks and some kennels do a better job than others do. I was lucky– one of my initial looks on the inside was from a guy who absolutely refused to kill dogs and who made sure they all got playtime as often as possible. I direct-adopted two of his, those were Bluebird and Slimmy, and both were wonderful until cancer took them too soon. (Cancer is the bane of the breed for sure)

    Do you want my copy of “High Stakes” by Hevener, which is a really good book on Greyhound racing? I can send it to George Phillies (if he is willing) or to your address or whatever. If you support the measure it might give you perspective, if you oppose the measure it might give you political ammo.

  19. disinter, that’s nuts. If CA pet owners can’t get an initiative on the ballot to protect their property rights, and there are a LOT more of them than there are LP members (OUTREACH GOLDMINE!), then what makes you think to LP in any state could do better?

    That’s why we work the legislative stuff. We won one today in helping to get the Mylar balloon bad defeated. Hopefully we’ll win another one tomorrow on AB1634…with Lassie on our side, too!

  20. LG – Mostly I rate the greyhound racing ban issue as something that I’m not all that worried about either way – It’s a free market thing, they will stop racing dogs when people stop paying to watch, etc. However it’s not one that I loose a great deal of sleep over – I will vote against the ban when it comes around, but otherwise don’t plan on putting any real effort into it pro or con… I mention it mostly in the context of initiatives – the three I mentioned are the only ones out of (IIRC) eleven that were initially filed.

    I appreciate your book offer, but I don’t feel enough concern about the issue for it to be worthwhile.

    ART

  21. To get slightly back on topic… (I’ve also posted this on the other AK thread)

    Just for fun, I’ve created a poll on the LPMass website

    “Who on the LNC do you trust more?” It’s in the general discussion area, and I will report on my results… To be fair, I put down all the LNC officers and at large members. Non-scientific, but fun… (Note, you must register on the site to vote or post, but you should be able to look at most things w/o registering)

    ART
    LPMA Operations Facilitator
    Speaking for myself

  22. “Probably because you could actually get someting changed with a properly worded amendment, whereas you won’t get shit changed running as a libertarian because the system will ensure you won’t win.

    Which makes me think that ballot initiative might be the way to go.”

    disenter and everyone else reading this, be sure and check out Carla Howell’s ballot initiative to End the Massachusetts State Income Tax. Here’s the link.

    http://www.smallgovernmentact.org/index.html

    This initiative is radically pro-liberty, and, unlike most Libertarian Party candidates, it actually stands a realistic chance of passing. I urge everyone here to donate to this campaign and to pass the link to everyone you know who is in favor of less government and urge them to donate as well.

  23. “Arthur Torrey Says:

    June 25, 2008 at 3:15 am
    Well being in an initiative state, I would say it’s a mixed bag… At least in Mass, an initiative is an even tougher job than a ballot petition – it takes at least two rounds of petitioning, with large numbers each time, and there is this nasty rule about “No stray marks” on the petition that makes the job even harder (a greasy finger-print in the margin, or someone trying to start a stuck pen can invalidate an entire sheet of signatures)…”

    The signature requirement to place an initiative on the ballot in Massachusetts isn’t that high in comparison to the population of Massachusetts. Massachusetts has something like 6.5 million people and the signature requirement is 69,000 and something valid signatures in the fall of the odd year. The state gives you 2 months (September-November) to collect the signatures. If enough signatures are collected the initiative then goes to the legislature and they can either pass it or do nothing with it. If they chose to do nothing with it, then the initiative comes back out in the spring (May-June) and you’ve got to collect 11,000 and something valid signatures.

    The thing that is difficult in Massachusetts is that the time frame for collecting the signatures is pretty short. Another thing that makes Massachusetts difficult is that the signers from every town have to be on a seperate page (in most states the petition signers are either seperated by county or everyone in the state can sign the same page) and then the signatures have to be turned in to each town clerks office (note that there are 351 towns in Massachusetts). Turning the signatures in to each town is a very difficult task (in most states all of the signatures are just turned into the Secretary of State’s Office). After the town clerks certify the signatures you’ve got to pick them up and deliver them to the Secretary of State’s Office.

    The “No Stray Marks” ruling in Massachusetts is completely absurd. I heard that it was used in some court case back in the ’90s to disqualify some signatures on a ballot initiaitve that the big government types did not like.

    I could see some arguement for it if the “Stray Marks” alter the langauge of the petition (as in if a person can’t read the text of the initiaitve because of it), however, this ruling has been interpeted to mean that any stray mark on the page disqualifies the entire page. This is the only state in the country that has such a ridiculous rule. Somebody ought to challenge this in court and try to get it thrown out.

    “But we WILL have ballot initiatives in Mass. this year to repeal the state income tax, and to decriminalize possessing an ounce or less of marijuana… (and also one to ban Greyhound dog racing) Of course even if an initiative DOES pass, there is is no guarantee that the legislators won’t over-ride it and ignore the “vote of the peepul…”

    The marijuana initiative in Massachusetts doesn’t go that far. It merely reduces the charges on the pocession of an ounce or less of marijuana down to where it is just a $100 ticket with no record and no jail (the cops can still confiscate the marijuana though).

  24. Fair enough Art– Since I’ve had five Greyhounds in my life it hits close to this home I guess. Not supporting it, and voting against it, are all good in my book. If you do decide you have questions, ask.

  25. Paulie, I’m sorry if I misconstrued the following comments you made
    (June 19)
    “…all sides attempt…to control their fellow men by theft and regulation”
    and “political parties – even the LP – are the antithesis of a free heart and mind.”

    I did not make those comments; I quoted them.

    If I did believe them it still would not mean I could not work with political parties, since they are a fact of reality.

    If I was a constitutional lawyer, that does not mean I could not be an anarchist; it would just mean that I understand that government courts are
    a fact of life, and I would be attempting to use them to mitigate damage.

    If I was a teacher or professor, there would be a high likelihood that I would take a job in a government school or college. They exist, and thus limit employment opportunities for teachers in the private field.

    As a petitioner, I work with political parties, even though ultimately I don’t think they or the government they seek to influence should exist. But, at this time, they do exist.

    Again – I did not express agreement or disagreement with the quoted section which you mistakenly characterize as “my” comments.

  26. Roscoe – “With all respect, how do you reconcile “it’s a major client for work” with your thinking that the LP and all political parties are engaged in evil activities?”

    Me -“Where did I say I thought so?”

    Andy – The LP is in reality a minor player in the world of ballot access.

    Me 2 – I was not speaking of the world of ballot access, I was talking about it being a major client for me personally. As you well know, I already know all that stuff you rattled off, and it doesn’t apply to what I said.

  27. disinter, that’s nuts. If CA pet owners can’t get an initiative on the ballot to protect their property rights, and there are a LOT more of them than there are LP members (OUTREACH GOLDMINE!), then what makes you think to LP in any state could do better?

    I don’t think that was disinter’s point. I think he meant that the LP is a waste of time and ballot initiatives are a better way to make effective political change.

    I, on the other hand, realize both are tools which can be used or abused.

  28. I think he meant that the LP is a waste of time and ballot initiatives are a better way to make effective political change.

    Yes.

  29. “Me 2 – I was not speaking of the world of ballot access, I was talking about it being a major client for me personally. As you well know, I already know all that stuff you rattled off, and it doesn’t apply to what I said.”

    The LP does NOT have to be a major client to you personally. It is only a major client to you because you WANT them to be a major client to you.

    There are people who have worked in politics and more specifically, on ballot access, for years who have never worked on any Libertarian Party projects.

  30. The LP does NOT have to be a major client to you personally. It is only a major client to you because you WANT them to be a major client to you.

    Correct. I personally like doing ballot access for parties more than I like initiatives. And the LP is the most consistent of those, irrespective of ideology, although as you know I work with all of them.


    There are people who have worked in politics and more specifically, on ballot access, for years who have never worked on any Libertarian Party projects.

    No, really? Gosh, I never knew that.

    [/sarcasm]

  31. “Correct. I personally like doing ballot access for parties more than I like initiatives. And the LP is the most consistent of those, irrespective of ideology, although as you know I work with all of them.”

    Hence my point, the LP is only a “major client” to you due to your personal preference and not out of necessity.

    BTW, I’ve never heard of you working for the Democrats.

    “No, really? Gosh, I never knew that.”

    I only brought up this up to illustrate that the Libertarian Party is small potatoes in the world of politics and ballot access.

  32. Hence my point, the LP is only a “major client” to you due to your personal preference and not out of necessity.

    I never claimed it was out of necessity.


    BTW, I’ve never heard of you working for the Democrats.

    Sure you have. I worked for the Democrats quite a bit before ’92. I’ve worked for Democratic interest groups (not the party) a lot since 2000 (Republican interests too, of course).

    I generally prefer “third” parties and independents.

    Since Democrats are on the ballot, there is less demand for that, and/or I am not as connected to it, and I’m less inclined to.

    That does not mean I’d rule it out for the future.

  33. “Sure you have. I worked for the Democrats quite a bit before ‘92. I’ve worked for Democratic interest groups (not the party) a lot since 2000 (Republican interests too, of course). ”

    I’m talking about working in a paid capacity, in particular getting paid to gather petition signatures to place Democratic Party candidates on the ballot, or to register people to vote as Democrats.

    I’m not talking about working on a ballot initiative or referendum that is supported by Democrats, I’m talking about working directly for the Democratic Party or a Democratic Party candidate.

    “Since Democrats are on the ballot, there is less demand for that, and/or I am not as connected to it, and I’m less inclined to.”

    You could work on petition drives to put Democrats on the ballot in primaries (in the states that require petition signatures to get on primary ballots). For instance, I heard that Hillary Clinton hired people to gather petition signatures for primary ballot access in Virginia.

  34. pauliecannoli Says:

    June 25, 2008 at 12:12 pm
    (MWS) disinter, that’s nuts. If CA pet owners can’t get an initiative on the ballot to protect their property rights, and there are a LOT more of them than there are LP members (OUTREACH GOLDMINE!), then what makes you think to LP in any state could do better?

    (PC) I don’t think that was disinter’s point. I think he meant that the LP is a waste of time and ballot initiatives are a better way to make effective political change.

    (PC) I, on the other hand, realize both are tools which can be used or abused.

    That’s where disinter gets it wrong. Paulie has it right, they both are good tools. Me, I prefer legislative work.

    What’s the easier work: convincing a legislative committee of 5-10 or a voting bloc of several hundred thousand, twice (once for the sigs, the other for the votes)? That’s an area the LP has continaully fallen short on in most states, and it is some of the essential nust-and-bolts work that all serious political parites do. That’s why I work it in CA–it needs to be done!

    That’s not dissing anything Paulie does, either. He always has his work cut out for him, and all praise and respect to him for his efforts. It’s just not my ball of wax.

    But considering that disinter’s political activity appears to be nothing more than a glorified bitchfest about the LP ove rhis own sour grapes, I can take his words with less than a grain of salt.

  35. Andy: see the rest of my my last comment (the part you did not quote). It responds to your subsequent comment.

  36. Michael,

    disinter runs a popular blog and contributes a lot of money to political causes he believes in.

  37. Just as an update – I created the poll on the LPMASS website that I promised above – http://lpmass.org/publicbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1168 Haven’t gotten a lot of votes so far, but 100% have been for Keaton as the one that was trusted more…

    ART

  38. […] Angela Keaton threatened for doing her j […]

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: