Steve G.

G.E. in Denver III: Gravel vs. Starchild (and Andy)

In Economics, George Phillies, Libertarian, Libertarian Convention, Libertarian Party-US, Libertarian Politics, Mike Jingozian, Politics, Presidential Candidates, Steve Kubby, Wayne Allen Root on May 23, 2008 at 5:28 am

Next was Q&A. One of the first questions was asked by Starchild. I don’t know the proper pronoun to use here, and I don’t want to be offensive, so I’ll say SC. SC asked the candidates, [note: please assume all quotes are paraphrased], “Do you believe the core of libertarianism is that you should be able to do what you want with your own body, life, and property, so long as you infringe on no one else?” They (Link, Mary Ruwart, Kubby, Gravel and Jingo all raised their hands). “Okay, then how can some of you support coercive taxation to fund education.” It was targeted to Gravel, of course.

I’ll skip the blow by blow and tell you that Gravel and Starchild had a rather length exchange. Stardchild kept SC’s cool, but dismissively (and deservedly) shook SC’s head and smiled at some of Gravel’s outlandishly statist propositions, but Gravel got fuming mad, shouting down SC. Gravel said you can’t have liberty without education and that without government schools, everyone would be dumb. And of course, we are too dumb now precisely because government schools are too decentralized. SC pointed out Gravel’s many contradictions which made the old man rage. “What do you want?” he asked, “voluntary education?” YES!, the crowd roared. “Show me where that has worked,” Gravel demanded.

At this point, Andy got into the act. “Right here in this country,” he said. Gravel disagreed. Andy set him straight. “FINE!” Gravel barked. “You want to go back to the 18th century, go right ahead.” Andy rejoined: “It’s not going back to the 18th century, it’s going back to freedom.” (That was a direct quote). The crowd erupted in cheers while the Maoist Gravel cohort sat on their hands.

Finally, Jim Duesning made Gravel shut up and let Steve Kubby speak. “There’s never a justification for using force to achieve goals,” he said. Short and sweet. Jingo said the same thing (he may have said it before Kubby, actually), and I waned to ask him how he saw protectionism as non-coercive.

There were a lot of questions on which Gravel’s anti-libertarian colors were exposed. At one point, he literally ridiculed libertarians for never getting anything done. Mary Ruwart pointed out that libertarians have changed people’s attitudes. This did not register with Gravel, who thinks change can only come through coercion.

A gentleman asked a question about the Fed and central banking. Link had disappeared by now and no one noticed. Jingo recalled a conversation with the Liberty Dollar founder (Bernand something) and agreed with him that a competing currency would destroy the Fed in a less tumultuous manner than an outright abolition. Jingo pointed out that saying “let’s allow competing currencies” seems completely logical to average voters.

Kubby and Ruwart gave predictably sound answers. Kubby pointed out that the dollar’s value, when compared to the loony, has halved. Ruwart blamed regulations for gold-standard-era depressions.

Gravel’s answer was thoroughly statist. He said gold and silver were dumb because Russia and South Africa had all the gold and silver (as if that matters). He then lionized that great libertarian, Abe Lincoln, as the pioneer of fiat money, with his government-issued greenbacks. Gravel thought it was great that these helped fund the War Against Southern Independence. He wants more authority for the government over money.

Oh, and I should mention that Jim Duesning said, “I wish George Phillies were here to answer this question.” Phillies, of course, supports the Fed’s monetary fascism. It was the second potshot at Phillies. Earlier, someone asked, “Where’s Bob Barr?” Duesning said all candidates had been invited and that anyone who did not think 9/11 needed an investigation, who trusted the government, was not a libertarian. He specifically mentioned the names Phillies, Root, and Barr (although allowed for as how they may have had legitimate commitments to other events).

Andy asked the next question: What do you think of the Fair Tax and the NAU. No one really talked about NAU, but a FairTax debate erupted, with Gravel supporting it strongly. Kubby made a whole new set of arguments against the FairTax that I had not even considered — as if that even needed to be done! Mary Ruwart said, “the only FairTax is NO TAX.” The crowd liked that. Gravel rambled on about how the LP was a “half-percent party” because of things like this. He is Dear Leader, and if we only follow him, we will win. What a hollow victory that would be.

There was some other mild drama, although I don’t remember when. A weird guy tried to take the stage, and Jim Duesning had to have him thrown out. “Don’t make me come off this stage!” he yelled at the dude. I felt bad for Duesning. He put on a good event.

  1. What in the hell is this Gravel nutjob doing in the LP in the first place? Is he another retard caucus recruit?

  2. Libertarian Party National Convention gossip roundup for Wednesday/Thursday…

    I’ll have a new post for each day of the convention, and update the current day’s post as I come across new juicy gossip.Presidential Nomination: G.E. on Last Free Voice reports that an anonymous source has told him, “The radicals……

  3. Gravel is desperate to stay in the limelight.

    He’s not a Libertarian.

  4. I’m liking Kubby more and more, and of course I have always liked Ruwart.

  5. Duesning said all candidates had been invited and that anyone who did not think 9/11 needed an investigation, who trusted the government, was not a libertarian.

    In related convention news, my “Anyone who doesn’t buy me a beer isn’t a ‘REAL Libertarian'” t-shirt finally DID get me 3 or 4 beers at the hotel bar last night.

  6. Mike Gravel received 1% of the Dems votes and 0% of the GOP votes during primaries. That averages out to 1/2%. Maybe that’s why Gravel decided to join the LP.
    Gravel should have know what he was getting into. Steve Kubby grilled him pretty good when Gravel was on Kubby’s Blogtalk Radio show.

  7. Cue the riot police. I see fisticuffs before this event is over.

  8. […] Mike Gravel got his ass handed to him at the Libertarians for Justice event in Denver. What party did he think he was running on? One […]

  9. During part of the event I was standing near the entrance to the room where this event was being held hangning out with members of Colorado 9/11 Visibility and We Are Change Colorado and I actually saw George Phillies pop up. I’m not sure why he was there. He walked up close to where the entrance was, stood there for a few moments, and then walked away.

    I had heard from somebody who attended the George Phillies hospitality sweet that night that George had said something about going to a debate. Perhaps he didn’t know that this particular debate was sponsored by Libertarians for Justice ( http://www.LibertariansforJustice.org ) and when he found this out he chickened out.

  10. “Andy asked the next question: What do you think of the Fair Tax and the NAU. No one really talked about NAU, but a FairTax debate erupted,
    Mary Ruwart and Steve Kubby both opposed the North American Union. Mike Gravel gave a “maybe” anwser on the North American Union.

    For some strange reason, Michael Jingozian did not give an anwser about the FairTax or the North American Union. I plan to try to get him to anwser these questions before the convention is over.

  11. In related convention news, my “Anyone who doesn’t buy me a beer isn’t a ‘REAL Libertarian’” t-shirt finally DID get me 3 or 4 beers at the hotel bar last night.

    You need a t-shirt that reads “Proud member of the retard caucus”.

  12. […] has a report from the Libertarian Party Convention (more than one report, actually). Notable is Gravel vs. Starchild, in which Mike Gravel shows himself to be the big-government socialist he really is, and nothing […]

  13. Anyone who does not give me head is not a real liberarian.

  14. Gravel is even more statist than I thought he was. It will be funny if not sad when his ass is handed to him during the presidential ballot.

  15. Gravel is even more statist than I thought he was. It will be funny if not sad when his ass is handed to him during the presidential ballot.

    Hopefully the other major statist, Barr, will get the same treatment.

  16. Gold doesn’t allow for fractional lending based money issuing. And that’s actually bad, because people are overprotective. Credit really is that, trust, and gold means no trust at all. However, if only 10% of the currency were gold backed, that wouldn’t be a problem. Then again, these 10% could be backed by any real value, including slave labor through taxation, if the government chooses so…

    While voluntary education will not lead to market problems it might well lead to class problems. People naturally stick together, prefer to be around with people they know and trust over foreigners. Education is of course brainwashing. But to give up on the most basic form of brainwashing is to give the guarantee of the unity of the state out of ones hands. This is far more serious than smaller chances for blue collar kids to get a white collar job and the like. What will happen is that you’ll have many different historical narratives in the U.S. that will diverge into different de facto cultures with their own rules of loyalties and obligations. And you will not be able to reunite them without using guns.

    So, it is simply irresponsible. Sure, I cannot prove that all this will happen, but it suffices that the opposite cannot be proven either to call this course of action irresponsible.

    You really don’t know what you’re setting loose there, if you support voluntary education. It will not take a hundred years and you’ll have millions of people whose behavior will be controlled by superstition. The intelligent design debate right now is bad enough, but it will get tremendously worse than that.

    So… I can understand if you can’t keep your cool in the face of such.

  17. The movie Idiocracy comes to mind when talking about privatizing everything.

  18. “The movie Idiocracy comes to mind when talking about privatizing everything.”

    From yur point of view, do the radical libertarians represent the two people on Earth who aren’t idiots, or the idiots?

  19. As if it would matter who the last two sane persons would be.

  20. […] I left off Thursday night after the Libertarians for Justice event. The next morning, a strange thing happened: I got put to work. […]

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