Steve G.

Sickos: What’s a free-market solution?

In Children, Crime, Human Rights Abuses on April 22, 2008 at 12:08 am

FLDS approvesThe creeps of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter-Day Saints are receiving renewed attention after one of their members (currently on probation in Arizona) was accused of raping a 16-year-old girl and impregnating her. Over the last few days, Texas CPS bureaucrats have been removing hundreds of women and children from their new compound outside Eldorado.

While I’m happy that women and children who by all accounts have likely been abused or coerced in some way are being taken out of that situation, as a libertarian, I’d rather the wasteful and often abusive Texas CPS wasn’t involved.

So what’s a libertarian way of dealing with people like this, or animal abusers, or others who are so disturbed upstairs that they harm those incapable of recourse? I can think of three ways of dealing with them:

  1. Ignore them. People like this will exist anyways, and trying to stop them won’t solve the problem.
  2. Ostracize them. Don’t sell them food or land and don’t buy anything from them, forcing them to be entirely self-sufficient to survive.
  3. When there’s credible evidence of a crime being committed, make the necessary arrests and ask members of the outside community to adopt kids potentially at risk.

None of these options is perfect. All three allow the standard-level abuse to continue. The second stops being effective once the group reaches a certain size, and the third requires somebody from inside to call for help, which groups like this make very difficult.

Please discuss how to deal with these people in the comments.

  1. I was actually thinking about this earlier today. It is going to be very hard on those children to be socialized outside the compound, because this is a religious sect which believes in blood atonement. Historically, even children have been murdered, and their blood spilled into the ground as these people believe their god requires, for simply being disobedient. As a result of being told things like that all their lives, those children are most likely scared to death that they will lose their souls and maybe even their lives if they socialize with outsiders.

    It’s hard on the women, too. These women have been abused. I know that they don’t think they have, but that’s because they don’t understand that what has been done to them is abuse, and because they know no other way and have been repeatedly told that any other lifestyle is sinful. They are likely afraid to believe any outsider. The women need help as well.

    I’m not suggesting that anyone change their religion; if people want to be polygamists, more power to them, IF all parties entered into that arrangement willingly. However, willingness implies consent, and there can be no consent without knowledge. These women may not even realize that they have rights under the law, and even if they do realize it, they likely fear losing their souls (or possibly their lives) if they act against their husbands or the “prophet”.

    Overall, I think FLDS is nothing but a bunch of horny old men who realized they could have multiple women sexually, even very young women, anytime they wanted them; and not “sin” if they marry them all. They remove young men from the compound at a very early age, so they will not have competition for the youngest females’ affections. It’s very, very sick as far as I’m concerned, and I think these women and children need some very serious help – psychologically, emotionally, financially – but I’m not altogether sure what the best help would be, from the viewpoint of what is best for them.

    Should the young children stay with their mothers? Will their mothers just take them back to the compound? Or will they leave the compound and live in the outside world, full of fear and paranoia because of what they have been taught, and passing that emotional burden onto their children?

    Honestly, I think more than anything these women and children need to be deprogrammed, just as is done with any other cult. However, that sometimes does more harm than good.

    This is an extremely complex subject, with no clear answer and hundreds of abuse victims. What’s the libertarian answer? Well, strictly speaking, I think the libertarian answer is to leave them alone to practice their religion, as long as there is no actual proof of abuse, and bearing in mind that abuse is defined based upon the society in which it occurs. In their society – and we do need to recognize that they have their own society, quite apart from ours – girls marry young, it’s very common, so it’s not considered abusive according to their belief system. Some libertarians even argue that it should not be against the law for a man to have sex with a young teen girl, and they base that argument upon their assumption that some girls are ready for an adult sexual relationship at an early age (though I will also state that I have yet to hear a female libertarian make that same argument).

    I don’t have any answers. I wish I did.

  2. Nigel, no I’m more interested in how to deal with you. How can you be so naive as to swallow the MSM/Texas/CPS position hook line & sinker? The remedy-criminal proceedings & all that goes with it is worse than the ALLEGED abuse. I’ve seen no indictments. The lone complaint is being traced as fraudulent. Even if there is abuse going on, there should be due process. This looks like some sort of religious persecution. & first show that there are significantly more older man underage girl (which the age was recently raised from 14 to 16) couples and/or underage pregnancy than in the population at large before you condemn the entire compound. I’d like to see the reaction if other groups or neighborhoods were accused of this sort of thing & rounded up like this. Are you kidding me? Animal abuse is a whole other thing.

  3. This seems like a Waco rerun.

  4. There is no longer any pretense of “innocent until proven guilty”.
    Coerced sex and/or marriages should be punished, but… after the fradulent Waco accusations, I have severe doubts about these type of things.

  5. Kent, agreed. I wish you hadn’t dropped out of the presidential race. You would be quite a debate photo-op!

  6. Well, for starters, a libertarian approach wouldn’t have that certain Stalin-esque touch of kidnapping the children of a whole community as a response to indications that one of the members of that community is a criminal.

    I could discuss the overall topic at length, but the above point seems particularly fundamental and I dare not move on to explaining notions that might be slightly more advanced than that until its grasped.

  7. Hi, Mr. Milnes. How are you feeling these days? Better, I hope. The last I read from you, you were very depressed and experiencing some serious difficulties in your personal life. I was very sad to read that, and I hope things are looking up for you.

  8. (currently on probation in Arizona) was accused of raping a 16-year-old girl and impregnating her.

    I’m glad someone mentioned the gaping flaws in this whole thing. I’ve been following this situation via Reddit; it’s gotten attention there.

    Worth noting: There is no 16-year-old girl. The man accused of abusing her has been in Arizona since 1972 and his probation officer has certified this statement. The caller reported him as having the wrong number of wives. She used terminology that the FLDS people do not use (“Easter Sunday” — a holiday they don’t practice, and “outsiders” — they use the term “gentiles”; these are just two examples).

    I do not condone the activities of the FLDS people, but let’s not forget that what they’re doing is in fact legal in Texas, or at least was until very recently, with the exception of being polygamists. IIRC, they recently made the change that under the age of 16 requires a court order. If they’d been smart about it, they could have had that detail taken care of quite easily. (Incorporate their own town, and install a JOP). Either way, to my knowledge none of these men have done anything with any pre-menstrual child… so I can’t say that I honestly see a problem with this from a physiological perspective.

    Everything else is moralizing, and I am left with the awe-striking fact that morality is entirely subjective here. Seriously; are you aware that for example the Q’oran states directly that Mohammad consummated his marriage with a girl not even ten years of age? It was commonplace as little as three hundred years ago for marriages to take place with girls who had just reached menstruation. So this is an entirely subjective item, as little enthusiasm as I have for the topic.

    That doesn’t make the FLDS people any less scum in my eyes — but that’s for the reasons of standardized coercion and religious nuttery, rather than some subjective quality such as them not living in accordance to my moral views.

  9. Why do “these people” have to be “dealt with?” What happened to a free country? Why is the state deciding who can get married and who cannot get married? Maybe the children are herioc and Texas is the villain. See:

  10. What about all of the welfare checks going to all of these women for the good of the men? Using the government but having nothing to do with the laws of the government.

  11. […] Sickos: What’s a free market solution? by Nigel Watt […]

  12. […] “Sickos: What’s a free market solution?” by Nigel Watt, 4/22/08 […]

  13. If America were to have actual jury trials (described here: ) instead of the sham appearance of jury trials to fool the sheep, I might be in favor of investigating some of these abuses, assuming an intervening jury trial before punishment.

    However, since every check and balance has been removed from the idiotic assholes we call our government, I can’t favor of any kind of state action against these religious nutjobs who want to screw many young women, and have figured out a pretty realistic way to get around the typical objections to that sort of thing. In fact, some of them may not even be religious nutjobs, but just old guys that want to screw young women.

    The most effective way to stop the child screwing would be to put a little social pressure on those who tried to screw the pre-menstrual. I imagine that this could even be done outside the community as well.

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