Steve G.

Another new face!

In Uncategorized on January 24, 2007 at 2:13 am

ElfMomNino, who rocks her shit spectacularly over at the Chapman For President blog, is going to join our staff! She’s got one of the funniest libertarian blogs on the ‘net, keeping track of one of the Party’s biggest embarrassments.

So yeah, everyone give her a big LFV welcome!

(Well, a big LFV welcome would probably involve toilet paper, the Second Amendment and the phrase “bugger off and die” so let’s just be nice to her an’ shit. :D)

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  1. How does LFV get all the best bloggers???

  2. By asking.

    Wanna join?

  3. Hahaha, thanks Paulie. I would take this great site straight down the shitter. I like this place too much for that. I did want to talk to you privately about something though. If you get a chance, fire me an email to jasongatties@gmail.com.

  4. Email fired. Oops, I said fired. Is Donald Trump going to sue me for copyright infringement now?

  5. Gmail came back, and hotmail does not recognize that address.

  6. probably cause the period at the end

    jasongatties@gmail.com

  7. Do you make his hair stand on end?

  8. OK, that should do it, sent it again w/o the .

  9. Sure he has money…alot of money. But I have this unfuckwitable stare that would make him soup his pants.

  10. I’m not sure how someone whose main interest seems to be a sort of pathetic stalk-blogging of someone who is a complete and utter unknown can qualify as “spectacular”. I suppose I’m missing out on some sort of meta-irony thing.

  11. Yup, you seem to be missing the point entirely. The good news is, you figured that much out for yourself.

  12. I suppose I’m just not in your intellectual league, Jason.

  13. Normally I wouldn’t feel provoked by you or anyone else here, but you felt the need to disrespect someone you don’t even know. If you disrespect someone, be prepaired to get it right back at you in return.

    LFV is a great blog and everyone here does a fine job. They wouldn’t bring in ENM unless they felt she had something to offer.

  14. We try to have something here for everyone, Susan. Not everyone here’s a radical and a lot of people appreciate the kind of commentary she offers.

    I’m really happy to have her onboard. 😀

  15. Susan and Jason, no need for acrimony.

    Actually when I first saw ENM’s stuff my reaction was the same as Susan’s, like
    “wow, who could be a bigger loser than Gene and Doug….maybe somebody who runs a negative blog about them?”

    So I kind of didn’t pay too much attention to the whole thing for a while but then what sparked my interest was Gene’s claim that Hacker might be a prof at “American Libertarian University” (right now, a blog that Gene just started, but he hopes to make it into a real university one day). Now here we have Gene on tape claiming that Badnarik is one of his campaign advisors. Granted, that could be a delusion, or BS, or exaggerated spin, or some combination thereof, but I’m genuinely curious how much truth there is to that.

    Hacker and Badnarik are not that marginal if you’re in the LP…Badnarik was our last Presidential candidate, and Hacker got libertarians to donate over $400,000 to Badnarik’s congressional race, which is a lot for the LP.

    So, yes, that angle has me interested in the story.

    Then there is the small matter of Doug having detailed, violent fantasies about exactly how he would go about killing Jake Porter, one of Phillies’ campaign people. So, we have the potential that Doug and Gene could do something or another to make national news, and I don’t mean get a lot of votes.

    Now, as for ENM, she is a journalist/writer/reporter and claims her Gene and Doug coverage is not very time consuming and just a small diversion.

    So saying it’s her main interest is kind of pushing it. I don’t know what her other interests are…but she writes well, and I’m hoping they will be interesting.

    We’re in our early stages here and inviting a lot of folks to join us as writers. Two of the first four just so happened to be working on campaigns for the LP presidential nomination, (me with Kubby, and Nigel Watt with Phillies) and so I thought why not someone who covers Chapman, just to be fair? This came about because ENM said I should cover the Chapman story more, and I said…well I was really more interested in the Hacker/Badnarik connection Gene is claiming to have, but why don’t you do it?

    That’s kind of my gneneral approach to all these things.

    Rather than bemoaning outdated information at LPHQ I helped get the ball rolling on producing newer and better stuff, like your club card/post cards.

    Rather than giving up on the party in disgust due to the Republitarians taking it over, I’m looking at ways to mobilize a recruitment effort to bring in people coming at libertarianism from the left; your designs and the Kubby campaign are two ways I am working on achieving that goal.

    Rather than going on the warpath about the delays at Liberty Mix/HoT we have started our own group blog to help maintain the HoT “community” and add to it – whether it’s mostly just until HoT/LibertyMix is back, or whether we become a “permanent” replacement, or whether it becomes a separate thing that keeps going strong after HoT comes back.

    And so long as we are covering LP nomination candidates, why not interject a little humor (of the theory of the absurd type) into it? It is entertaining, and we need a good excuse to laugh with all the messed up stuff going on in the world around us, we need all the laughter we can get.

    That’s what I love(d) about HoT: The ability to mix the serious and heavy with the light and humorous, that sort of thing.

    We are extending invitations to a lot of people…and Susan, as far as I am concerned that includes you.

    If Stuart objects – and so far he has not objected to anyone I have invited – you can help make my other blog

    http://pauliecannoli.wordpress.com/

    into a group blog like this one (so far, I have not had nearly the success with that transition as Stuart has). Of course, only if you are interested, either way.

    I look forward to see if ENM comes through with some cool posts; I’m hoping she will. And you have already contributed here, although it was me posting it on here, with your press releases and designs, etc.

    So, let me know if you would like to join us, and either way or even just in the meantime, ENM, welcome on board!

    Well, that was a lot longer than I meant it to be, but now that it is done I might as well
    let folks read it, since I took the time to write it.

    Even if you don’t join us as a writer, I look forward to your comments in the future.

    I hope this clears things up, and as always we thank you for your support!@

    -p

  16. Thanks, Paul, but no. I don’t mind commenting here, but I’m not really interested in contributing to a group writing effort that features vulgarity so prominently. It’s not something I would like to be associated with. Too easy to slip into bad habits, and it’s a rare bit of writing that is improved by the spice of vulgarity.

    I do appreciate your efforts to keep moving forward, Paul 🙂

  17. I already think this site is better than HOT ever was.

  18. I already think this site is better than HOT ever was.

    In some ways. We don’t have near as much traffic or as many writers (at least not yet) and we don’t have any techies on here writing custom scripts – at least not yet.

    But I think we’re moving forward on those fronts and and time will tell.

    I think we are capturing the essential spirit of what HoT was doing. Now it’s just a matter of growth in the directions we’ve already set out in.

    I’d love to see HoT be back and/or Liberty Mix to come out, but I’d rather replace them to the extent we are able until/unless they do, rather than cry about it. There may well, and probably will, be a niche for us even after they come back, I think.

    Similarly, rather than bemoan problems several of us are frustated with as far as the LP goes, I love that we are (finally!) taking concrete steps to fix them.

    And as far as the vulgarity, I like it, and there are plenty of staid, somnambulous, overly polite libertarian websites already. I prefer being straightforward, cheeky, honest, humorous, slightly nasty and edgy – it’s more fun that way.

    There are plenty of sites like that too, but not many libertarian ones.

    I totally respect that some folks don’t like that, though, so I’m not mad about it or anything, but that’s just how we do, and I’d like to keep it that way and keep improving
    on the theme.

    Susan is doing great organizing and design work, so I certainly hope she keeps participating to whatever extent she’s comfortable around us ruffians,

    I completely respect a diversity of different styles and ways of appealing to differnt people.

    Oh yeah, and the Gene Chapman shiznit is kinda funny….sorry, it might be retarded, but I can’t help laughing at it, so even if she does not come through with any other topics I’m looking forward to ENM’s further exposes of the Dynamic Duo (Gene and Doug).

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled program!

  19. Paul, you speak sense as usual, but I do disagree with you on one bit. “Straightforward, cheeky, honest, humorous, slightly nasty and edgy” does not *require* vulgarity (or more than a touch of it for spice), and I at least think it’s possible to be nonvulgar without sinking into “staid and somnambulous.”

    Maybe it’s the ‘slightly nasty’ part that requires a higher level of vulgarity. I just find that anything more than a little salting of occasional vulgarity is tedious and, like oversalting in food, is often a cover for poor preparation (bad writing). I suppose it’s possible to have someone who is an excellent writer use vulgarity in a consistently excellent manner, but that’s not the sort of use I see here.

    And I’m not sure what ‘overly polite’ even means.

  20. Well, you know, like I said – that’s fine. Everyone has their own tastes as far as that goes. Some people like our style, some people don’t – as we say in Russian “na vkus y tsvyet, tovarisch nyet” (in taste and color there are no comrades).

    Not everyone here has the same style either, we each have our own, and to some extent we might influence each other’s style – that tends to happen when you hang around with a crowd, but then it works in both directions – if I participate more, the site might reflect my style and values more than if I participate less, as you might expect.
    And some people are more susceptible to be influenced than others, too.

    It’s a matter of individual decision as to what you can stomach. Some Christians in recovery feel strong enough to go out into the bars, dopehouses and whorehouses and preach the Gospel and recovery to the sinners. And some think – and they may well be right – that that will only lead them to fall off the wagon, get drunk, smoke some rocks, and sleep with some hookers.

    Speaking of which, who the hell ever sleeps with hookers? I mean actually sleeps. Like, falls asleep, snores, has dreams. Why would anybody pay to do that? And would their wallet still be there when they wake up? Sorry, tangent, I do that a lot.

    Anyway.

    Those who feel too weak in their recovery to resist temptation might be best off spending their time in churches and meetings, instead of putting themselves in an environment of temptation, or the next thing you know, the white knucklin’ wall of repression falls away and they explode, drinking all the drunks under the table, breaking Tyrone Biggum’s crack smoking world record, and wearing the hookers out so much the poor unfortunate young ladies have to pay them (to stop).

    I happen to think that you are absolutely correct and it’s entirely possible to find a solid middle ground which is neither boring nor extremely vulgar.

    I just happen to enjoy a fair bit of vulgarity on a visceral level and I know there are many people out there who do as well, for that matter there are many people who would only be interested in ever looking at anything here because of that, but might learn something by accident. Besides, I don’t think we are really all that vulgar.

    But really it’s cool…”your mileage may vary” and no one is pressuring anyone to be on the staff here, all we do is extend invitations, and everyone has their own reasons to accept – or not.

    As I said before – you are already contributing a lot, of which I am glad, and hope you continue doing so. Other people have different contributions to make, so I hope we can all tolerate each other, well at least enough not to go away mad or get in fights, and after that it’s all gravy in our gay little navy.

    Gosh darn, but I love to overstate the obvious.

    Anyway, here we are in the 20+ comments and ENM hasn’t even made her first post yet! Let’s just give her a chance, shall we? She does write well, I think. Let’s see what happens.

  21. I also enjoy vulgarity occasionally. I just don’t find it meshes well with writing in most cases. Tastes, as you say, differ.

    But I wanted to respond to one thing you wrote: I happen to think that you are absolutely correct and it’s entirely possible to find a solid middle ground which is neither boring nor extremely vulgar.

    That’s not exactly what I meant. In much the same way that libertarianism isn’t the ‘middle ground’ between left and right, I don’t consider effective writing to be a ‘middle ground’ between ‘boring’ and ‘extremely vulgar’. I think vulgarity most often *is* boring, and often extremely so. And effective non-vulgar writing isn’t boring.

    Interesting discussion about communication 🙂

  22. When I blog, I write how I talk. So you will see some vulgar words pop in because again…thats how I am. I respect the more “professional style” of blogging as well, its just refreshing to see that not everyone takes themselves so seriously.

  23. Jason, I’m not only referring to word choice when I mention ‘vulgarity’ (although that’s a large part of it). I actually think it’s hard to write well using vulgarity without looking affected (like you’re *pretending* to be vulgar, which is even sillier than actually *being* vulgar).

    Of course in many cases it’s just a question of style. Effective writing can be vulgar. Maybe I was making vulgarity the easy scapegoat for less easily identifed and more personal complaints about the writing here. I think I made the mistake of answering the question “Does this dress make me look fat” by saying “Well, that’s not the best color on you.” Perhaps it would have been more honest to simply say “Yes,” or even “It’s not the dress, honey.”

  24. Wow….OK….what is the point of this discussion again?

    Let’s see if we can all be on the same page here.

    Jason, Stuart, and others like ENM’s writing and we are welcoming her on board.

    We have invited a number of people. Some said yes, some said no, and some never said anything back either way.

    Everyone who has complained about how this site is run, or asked us to write more about this or more about that, or complained about the quality of our writing, or about whatever it is in wordpress that puts some comments in moderation for no apparent reason, has been invited to write here to make this site better, to make sure comments are not stuck in moderation, and to make sure the issues and subjects they want covered are in fact covered and discussed here.

    Some have accepted this challenge and gone on to contribute what they can.

    Others have declined the invitation and that is fine too. We are believers in and practitioners of liberty, individual choice, free association and the volunteerist do-it-yourself ethic. We recognize that we are not perfect, and that our fellow bloggers and commentators are not perfect.

    That does not mean we should not try to improve ourselves and each other, but we recognize that the best way to lead is by example, and the second best by specific suggestions.

    In some ways, Susan is contributing to this effort by creating graphics and writing letters and press releases. Those are positive, concrete steps that are making this site and the LP better and more effective.

    In other ways, she seems to want to have everyone else do things her way, and that is not going to happen. In fact, if anything, it may cause someone to react defensively, or negatively, or just to assert their personal sovereignty and independence by consciously not doing things the way she likes.

    If Susan does not like some of the writing here, she’s welcome to contribute better writing. If she does not want to do that because of the guilt by association with us lesser mortals, that’s fine too – but then we are just stuck with whatever those people who do choose to write here come up with. That’s just the way it is.

    Relevant thoughts here include the serenity prayer

    God, give us grace to accept with serenity the things that cannot be changed, courage to change the things that should be changed, and the wisdom to distinguish the one from the other.

    As well as the popular saying. “Lead, follow, or don’t block the path.”

    Now then, when Susan contributes things such as the Taxes of Evil I and II postcards, the State of Disunion flyer/poster, the LP Radicals Antiwar statement and the Open Letter to Redpath, as well as the LP Radicals website and yahoo group, she is, as Gene and Doug like to say, showing good leadership. I mean that without irony.
    Great work!

    On the other hand, when she slices and dices and picks apart national LPHQ releases rather than sending them suggested ones, or when she disses new contributors here before they have even had a chance to start, or when she says our writing stinks and she does not want to be associated with it, she’s well, let’s just say, not.

    Can vulgarity be boring? Sure.

    We’ll try not to be boring. Sometimes we will succeed, and sometimes we won’t.

    So, once again, I’m going to welcome ENM and anyone else who has accepted the challenge of writing here, subjecting themselves to criticism, and making this site better and more interesting. I also welcome those who have interesting and constructive comments, and those who create writing and graphics we can post and discuss here.

    I hope that clears things up as far as what we want to do here. So hopefully we’ll see more of that and less of the …not-that.

  25. Paul,
    Every time someone offers a criticism, they don’t have to contribute their own version of the work or something better. Criticism in itself can be valuable – to those willing to listen. This is point that seems to be lost these days. I know it can be frustrating to have people NOT doing what you’re doing to say “You’re doing the thing I’m not-doing all wrong, you fool!,” but if you step back a bit and think about it apart from your frustration, their criticisms can be useful.

    I thought this had transitioned into a more general discussion about communication, but now I realise I have been impolite. I see I have offended you in what’s probably a misguided attempt to avoid offending someone else. It’s Stuart’s writing I dislike, to be honest (which I should have been from the start). And Stuart knows that, as I’ve said it before.

    I also dislike ENM’s writing, which is what provoked this (interesting, to me) discussion. I’m not ‘dissing her’ based on a lack of knowledge – I simply dislike her writing and her choice of a subject. Maybe you don’t. This isn’t a democracy. Obviously I read this stuff for *some* reason. (right now I’m asking myself what it is 🙂

    Oh, yes, I remember. I read it for your contributions and those of some others. I also read it because you post the Rads’ work and I am interested in promoting it. I also actually enjoy discussion of the sort happening here. I think it’s useful to talk about how people communicate.

    You say:

    In other ways, she seems to want to have everyone else do things her way, and that is not going to happen. In fact, if anything, it may cause someone to react defensively, or negatively, or just to assert their personal sovereignty and independence by consciously not doing things the way she likes.

    I think the first part is harsh. I appreciate diversity in styles of doing things – which I’ve pointed out *several times*. The second part is just silly. Understandable, and it does happen I know; but silly. I think you’re mature enough to evaluate the evidence and resist burning yourself on a hot stove even if I yell “DON’T TOUCH!” at you. Why is writing any different?

    Incidentally I *did* send something to Stephen Gordon, and as far as I know he never even got it, because he never sent an acknowledgement. I also offered my services as an editor to the LNC and recieved – again – no acknowledgement. And god knows they need an editor – that last piece by Redpath was *pathetic*.

  26. Susan – I will try to make this quick this time.

    1) I’m not offended. You have not offended me.

    2) You have every right to dislike Stuart and/or ENM’s writing. They, like me, can’t please everybody. Some people like their stuff, and some don’t. Some people like my stuff, and some don’t. Some people like your stuff. And some don’t. (I like a lot of it).

    3) You can criticize whatever you want. We have a free speech policy here, although at some point someone might say something that we will not allow this to be a forum for, and if (or more likely when) that happens those comments will be removed. But so far that has not happened, so we’ve been pretty lucky.

    4) You can also be more effective when you create rather than criticize. No one will stop you from criticizing. It’s your right. We all open ourselves for criticism by posting stuff here. All I am saying is that people listen to you more when you show them the way (which you also do, quite well) than when you criticize, and that’s my criticism of you – you don’t have to listen to it any more than Stuart has to listen to you.

    5) Navel gazing is great. I have one of the world’s most fascinating navels. Just thought I’d throw that in there to see if anyone’s paying attention. Medium pizza, all veggies, thin crust. Thanks.

    6) We can have a more general discussion of communication, but I’ll start a new thread about it. Give me a little time, I want to think of a way to make it interesting to a larger set of people.

    7) If you have been impolite, it was not to me, but perhaps somewhat to ENM. Other people do like her, so I would like her to feel welcome here. We’re trying to bring in a diverse audience by having a diverse group of writers. Your materials and comments will also benefit if more people see them. Who knows, you might find someone to distribute your work, or make a financial contribution, or come around to your way of thinking on something – who would never have even thought about it before.

    So, let’s not scare people off before they get started here, and let’s not assume they will only write about what they have written elsewhere. I’m on favor of giving folks a fair chance.

    8) Where you quoted me above and said the first part was harsh. Sorry, I don’t mean to be harsh. I really, truly don’t.

    But, actually if you think about it, in a way you admitted it not too long ago.

    I won’t publish private email, unless you want me to. Maybe you know what I am referring to, and maybe you forgot, but I can email it back to you rather than posting it here, since it was never sent to a list.

    But you’re not the only one who has those tendencies; I like things done my way too, but I also have learned through experience I can’t have it my way all the time, and that was my equivalent of touching a hot stove. I still want things done my way, and I still keep getting lessons in learning to accept that sometimes it just won’t happen no matter what I say or do.

    9) I can accept criticism. In fact I like it. One of my frustrations is that people avoid criticizing me directly a lot of times, and allow me to keep doing things wrong or annoying them, because they think it would be impolite to confront me or because I should “already know better” and/or “it’s common sense” and then the next thing I know, they are exploding because they have let it build up to that point.

    10) I also accept that when I criticize others, a lot of times they don’t take it well, and respond by being ornery and defensive. Since I can also be that way myself, I understand the place that is coming from, and try to keep it in mind as best I am able when I criticize others. Call it silly all you want, and it may well be – but it’s also real.
    Believing everyone should take your criticism well does not mean they will.

    So, my advice is to keep that in mind, as best you can, and think about when your criticism is most likely to make things better and when it’s more likely to make things worse.

    Stuart has praised some of your work, like the press release, graphics, etc., so let’s try to build off that common ground and see what we can do that’s creative and moves the ball forward.

    If that works, and the criticism usually (I don’t mean with me here) just backfires, it is reasonable to look at what works and what doesn’t, and do more of what works – and less of what doesn’t.

    11) If your problem is with Stuart and ENM but not with me, I also invited you to post on my blog, which as I said is also intended to eventually be a group blog. Michelle has posted there a couple of times, but other than that so far I have failed in that regard. I do post stuff like the “Metabox” video though, so you might find my site to be vulgar as well.

    12) Steve gets swamped. I’m not surprised when he doesn’t acknowledge stuff.

    13) Yeah, LNC/LPHQ could use more editing, but if you seriously were interested in having them use your help, you went about it all wrong.

    14) Dammit. I totally failed in making this quick. I’ll stop here.

  27. I don’t want to argue with you, Paul. There’s no problem here that I can see.

    Just to answer 13: I’m not sure you understand the sequence. If you do, I’m astonished at your assertion of ‘going about it all wrong’ and would love to hear how you would do it differently.

    I offered help in editing *first* – way before I publicly criticised their writing. Did I offer some criticism with my offer? Sure! That was the point! I said (in essence): “I see these problems – A, B, and C. I think I can help you ensure they happen less frequently.” Response was:

    (yes, nothing. lots of it).

    So then I turned to pointing out some of their shortcomings publicly in order to focus some level of grassroots concern on what I see as a serious issue. And THEN Shane has the NERVE to publicly accuse me of only offering criticism, and not offering help.

    What I want to know is how I can get national to not realease absolute unprofessional crap in press releases and other statements. Any suggestions from you would be most welcome.

  28. P – neither of us is very good at the ‘quickly’ thing, are we? 😉

  29. What I want to know is how I can get national to not realease absolute unprofessional crap in press releases and other statements. Any suggestions from you would be most welcome.

    Fair enough. short version: much more of what you have started doing with the press release, open letter and graphics. When we create outreach material that works, and start bringing members and money into the party, they will be forced to follow our example – or they will get run off the road. But we are in the wrong thread. This has nothing at all to do with ENM anymore, so I propose we move further discussion of communication strategies into a different thread.

    How about the one about Libertarian responses to the Bush Grunts? I think it may be more on topic there. Also, I’ll be working on a post about the criminalization of dissenting views. So it may be more on topic there as well. Not sure when I’ll have that finished – hopefully tonight.

  30. Hey, I know you don’t like my writing style. Doesn’t bother me. I just do what I do because I enjoy it and so do a couple other people, evidently.

    I honestly wouldn’t have a problem with you writing here; we need a great diversity of outlooks here, broad enough that every libertarian out there can read this blog and find something they wholeheartedly agree with and someone speaking to their own mind. If not me, then Paulie… or Michelle… or Nigel… or Chaz… or whoever.

    We need every comrade we can get. And barring that, we (and the libertarian movement by extension) needs every bit of help it can get. And for that, even though I quite often disagree with your outlook and your way of expressing yourself and your tastes, I am very thankful that we have such an activist as yourself in the Libertarian Party; as well as everyone else who is here.

  31. Stuart.

    My opinion of you is undergoing a revolution.

    The most frivolous reason is that you used the word ‘comrade’. I adore that. In fact, I wanted to launch a campaign to require that Libs address one another as ‘comrade’ in Party meetings.

  32. I propose that, as a Randian-Leninist party, we should pay homage by saying it in the original Russian. (Tovarisch).

    Part of our revolutionary agenda should be the Russification of America, and (as a clean break with the older, decadent mixed economy society) we should just switch everyone over to the Russian language.

    My nachnyom s alkogolyem. Amerikantzy pyut prativnuyu “Bourbon Whiskey” – eto otvratitilnaya gadost’, y vazhniy element nashiy platformy – perestroyit tut obshestvo
    shtob’ pili haroshoyu Russkoyu Vodku:

    http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2006/12/vodka200612?printable=true&currentPage=all

  33. OK, Paul, I could go for that. I love that word. It’s also got that Moon is a Harsh Mistress Heinlein-thing going for it.

    And I like the Russification thing. We all need to stock up on SKSs! This point was made by another gun nut: “Wouldn’t it be ironic if someday a weapon made to oppress the Soviet people and defend against America were to be used by the people of America to throw off the tyrannical shackles of their own American government?!?!?!” (at http://www.simonov.net/sovietaid.htm)

  34. Ya, lichno, predpachitayu avtomaty y pulyemyoty Kalashnikova.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Kalashnikov

    Ne plokhaya vodka, tozha.

  35. Russian is such an awesome language. I could dig it.

    English is outrage! Anathema!

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