Steve G.

Call to Arms: Resolution of Discipline against Angela Keaton

In Activism, Boston Tea Party, Crazy Claims, Libertarian, Libertarian Party-US, Libertarian Politics 2008, Lies and the lying liars who tell them, Politics, Protest on December 1, 2008 at 10:15 pm

The charges against Angela Keaton have finally been disclosed (well, leaked, LOL) and Stewart Flood is behind them.  He wrote it, and he plans to present it on Saturday.

Grab your popcorn, folks, because this one is a doozy.  Strangely, it reflects far more upon Stewart than it does on Angela.  After reading it over, it’s my opinion that Stewie needs both a humor implant, and a life.  It must have taken him forever to dig up all this crap on Ms. Keaton, and most of it obviously was just a joke on her part, an exaggeration on his part, and/or taken completely out of context.  The rest I’ll have to check into, but as far as I’m concerned, just glancing over it based upon what I have seen, the charges are a joke.

Of particular interest is the allegation that Ms. Keaton provided material support to another political party (assumably the BTP).  What exactly was Bob Barr doing, both when he sat on the LNC and was the LP’s presidential candidate, while his PAC contributed thousands to Republican candidates, if not providing material support to another party?  Why wasn’t he brought up on disciplinary charges? 

The resolution is to suspend her, but the suspension will be rescinded if she submits a written apology to millions of people within seven days, on about 20 differerent alleged “offenses”, to be published in LP News.  This is clearly in my opinion nothing but an attempt to humiliate her, given the very weird nature of the charges, and force her to bend to the demands of the reformers.  

So, here’s your assignment, LFV contributors and readers.  Dig up all the dirt you can on every single person she has allegedly harmed, according to the resolution.  I know there’s a lot out there, because I have received a lot of it over time.  I’m talking everything, from Stewart allegedly claiming to have been a Unabomber suspect, to men on the LNC calling Angela a “fucking bitch”.  Post it in comments.  

Here’s the “Resolution of Discipline”:  resolution-of-discipline-for-angela-keaton

  1. Published in the LP news, eh? That’s a laugh, considering that they don’t put it online for reading and seem to lack the cash for a paper version!

  2. Hey, what happens if you’ve provided “material support” to Angela?

    Seriously, what a bunch of bull. A lot of it is old, most of it completely stupid baloney that is clearly part of Angela’s snarkier moments (good thing there aren’t any electronic bugs around here– we redefined “Executive Session” among other things!) and it’s all completely fluff in the face of so many problems in the LP.

    If we’re going to discipline the Keaton, discipline Bob Barr for not raising 40M– or for all his support to GOP pukes– that might actually DO something.

    Oh yeah, a resolution condemming the passage of Prop 8 out here might actually DO something.

    But oh, no, we have to have little catfights.

    Time to grind some more rye flour for that “material support” LOL!

  3. Definitions of Kangaroo court on the Web:

    * A court with no legal basis, also slang for a court of law in which violations of legal processes are so bad that justice is denied.
    http://www.militarylawoffice.com/legal_dictionary

    * an irregular unauthorized court
    wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    * A kangaroo court or kangaroo trial, sometimes likened to a drumhead court-martial or Drumhead trial, is a sham legal proceeding or court. Kangaroo courts are judicial proceedings that deny due process in the name of expediency. …
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo court

    * A judicial or quasi-judicial proceeding, or a group which conducts such proceedings, which is without proper authority, abusive, or otherwise unjust
    en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kangaroo court

    Find definitions of Kangaroo court in: English Italian Russian all languages

  4. There used to be a picture of Mr. Flood givin’ AK a big hug on some Facebook page, so I suppose he could be charged with palling around with anarchists.

  5. In California, prostitution — offering sexual favors for pay — is a crime. It appears to me that Angela may have been accused of criminal acts, perhaps felonies, though I could be wrong.

    These accusations have already been made to the LNC.

    ———- Forwarded message ———-
    From: REDACTED
    Date: Mon, Dec 1, 2008 at 5:09 PM
    Subject: [Lnc-discuss] Resolution of Discipline for Angela Keaton
    To: lnc-discuss@lp.org
    I am the author of the attached resolution. I will be presenting it on Saturday, and I will be making the case for its passage.

    It will be interesting to see if there is evidence passing the reasonable man test of these accusations.

    Some people, faced with such accusations, hand them over to their attorneys.

    It is unclear that D&O insurance will cover people voting for such charges, if they were not reasonably credible.

  6. Well, from what I’ve seen so far, most of the complaints are based in Stewart’s lack of a sense of humor or sarcasm, some are completely in error, and still more lack details. One is his word against hers, and one calls photoshopping satire harassment.

    So I’ll call bullshit on this stuff.

    And yes, the tank top is implied as well.

  7. [...] You can read about the LNC’s Resolution of Discipline here, including a PDF of the actual Reso… [...]

  8. I think now we know why the Lawyer for the libertarian party has raised his fees by 25%. I suspect he thinks he was not raising them by enough.

  9. George,

    Yes prostitution is a crime here in California.

    Prostitution is defined under Section 653.20(a) of the California Penal Code.

    Pandering is defined in Section 266(i) of the California Penal Code and is best described as:

    * Solicitation of customers for prostitution services
    * Recruitment of prostitutes for hire

  10. I think that each state libertarian party should caucus with the intent of withdrawing from the national party if the LNC doesn’t withdraw the motion against Angela.

    The idea is too starve the idiots.

  11. I thought it was common knowledge among libertarians that Redpath performed a lobotomy on himself using one of those home lobotomy kits.

    In politics, one person’s subjective truth is an absolute defense against another person’s subjective truth. This renders the whole show trial moot and only relevant for entertainment purposes.

    Hopefully, Mr. Root will be present to lend his dynamic leadership qualities to the extravaganza.

  12. Peter Orvetti wrote: “There used to be a picture of Mr. Flood givin’ AK a big hug on some Facebook page, so I suppose he could be charged with palling around with anarchists.”

    Given that it was a “big hug”, perhaps a Resolution of Discipline should be filed against Mr. Flood. There is no doubt that it is both inappropriate and unprofessional for a male committee member to press his body closely against that of a female committee member. In fact, such behavior is strictly prohibited and viewed as a termination offense at workplaces nationwide.

    Furthermore, his poor judgment in touching a female colleague in what could be viewed as a sexual manner creates a hostile work environment for female staff and LNC members, and could potentially expose the LNC to costly litigation.

    See, other people can play Mr. Flood’s little blame game as well, but some of us are much better at it.

  13. Now that I have fully reviewed the charges. It has come to my attention that the logo of the Boston Tea Party emblazoned across a cotton fabric was held up Angela Keaton’s chest.

    If this Is what they meant by material support it would be hard to deny but is it cause for suspension?

  14. Steve!

    That wins best line of the day, hands down! :D

  15. I have to tell you all. That some how this whole thing just reminds me of the movie animal house. That scene where the delta fraternity is before the disciplinary committee.

    The problem that I am having is that one of the libertarian characters that we have been discussing reminds me of Kent ‘Flounder’ Dorfman whom was nominally on the good guy side in the movie but seems to have reverted to the dark side in the libertarian version.

  16. How about the trial of the Chicago 7? Will they end up duct taping Angela to her chair?

  17. BTW, it should be remembered that Flood was the LNC alternate from Region 4 when Mark Bodenhausen resigned. Flood refused to fulfill his obligation to replace Bodenhausen, thereby greasing the wheels for Barr to be named to the LNC. Even though Flood had abrogated his responsibilty as an LNC alternate, he nonetheless continued in that position and is now the sitting LNC member who is bringing the petition against Angela.

  18. This is ridiculous! The LNC unanimously voted at the last meeting to ask her to apologize and she effectively told the LNC to F off. The time to offer her a chance to apologize is long past. The double standard is demeaning to all women. If a man had committed 10% of the sexual harassment that Keaton has committed, he would have been out the door long ago. They should kick her off the LNC and out of the LP!

  19. If you are going to accuse someone of committing a crime, you should know what the law is.

    With thanks to defend-me.com and a Google Search

    California Penal Code Section 653.20 – 653.28

    653.20. For purposes of this chapter, the following definitions
    apply:
    (a) “Commit prostitution” means to engage in sexual conduct for money or other consideration, but does not include sexual conduct engaged in as a part of any stage performance, play, or other entertainment open to the public.
    (b) “Public place” means an area open to the public, or an alley, plaza, park, driveway, or parking lot, or an automobile, whether moving or not, or a building open to the general public, including one which serves food or drink, or provides entertainment, or the doorways and entrances to a building or dwelling, or the grounds enclosing a building or dwelling.
    (c) “Loiter” means to delay or linger without a lawful purpose for being on the property and for the purpose of committing a crime as opportunity may be discovered

    653.23. (a) It is unlawful for any person to do either of the
    following:
    (1) Direct, supervise, recruit, or otherwise aid another person in the commission of a violation of subdivision (b) of Section 647 or subdivision (a) of Section 653.22.
    (2) Collect or receive all or part of the proceeds earned from an act or acts of prostitution committed by another person in violation of subdivision (b) of Section 647.

    653.26. A violation of any provision of this chapter is a
    misdemeanor.

  20. There are a few other things she is accused of by certain members of the LNC that haven’t been mentioned (and I won’t mention them) but long story short, those members are going to make quick enemies of Illinois saying and doing those things.

    However that being said, there are so many other things on the agenda this weekend so much bigger then this, it would be nice if those items would be the primary focus of this up coming meeting.

  21. She should just do the right thing and resign. The Greens would have kicked her out for any one of these offenses.

  22. To Lisa:

    I doubt the Greens would kick anyone out without a hearing, but it seems that many in the LP don’t believe in due process.

    Offenses like: calling someone unqualified to sit on the National Committee?

    Should insults now be grounds for kicking people out? If so, what about the National Chair calling Angela a bitch?

    To Jenny:

    Is it sexual harrassment when the person being referred to isn’t offended? How about when the National Treasurer initiates a motion against someone because she repeatedly spurned his sexual advances?

    None of these “offenses” took place in a vacuum. But a lot of people seem willing to take charges at face value without further examination.

  23. Stewie is orginally from Philadelphia — all of us in the City of Brotherly Love apologize for his conduct and are embarrassed and appalled at his amnesia about the basic concepts of free speech and free expression.

    Further, as a Philadelphian, I am astounded that Stewart has become such a simpering wussy during his time abroad. Assuming that the “phone threat” made was genyooine and intended (or even made) — all three of which are a stretch at best — aren’t there a set of balls underneath that 48 inch beltline, boy?

    A Philly boy is now reduced to tearful terror when a Libertarian minx tells him to back off or she’ll kick his ass?

    Oh Stewie. Your city hardly knows ye.

  24. Steve Meier wrote, “That some how this whole thing just reminds me of the movie animal house. That scene where the delta fraternity is before the disciplinary committee.”

    Does that mean that Angela has been on double-secret probation? ROFL

    The situation reminds me of last week’s episode of “The Office”. Michael Scott wanted to fire Toby, the HR guy who Michael just doesn’t like, but corporate tells him he can’t do that without cause. Michael responded, “I do have cause, it’s beCAUSE I hate him!” LOL

    Stewie would be Michael Scott, except that he looks more like he ate Michael Scott. ;-)

  25. OK, ENM, I think spilling the beans is a great idea. It gets a lot of angst out of the process, doesn’t it? ;)

    While we’re busy spilling, perhaps I should start by recounting the biggest doozies of my own that I remember:

    1) An e-mail where Shane Cory told Angela that she’s well-liked “despite being the representative of the Outrights and the radicals,” not because of that… Keep in mind that as an LNC member, she was Shane’s boss, and such comments are borderline insubordinate. Too bad LNC rule books only get dragged out as pillories when Angela’s involved, huh?

    2) A coffee date that I enjoyed with both Stewie and Angela during the CLC in Las Vegas where, at the mere sight of Alan Hacker, Stew turned purple-faced and started ranting that “Hacker has defrauded the LNC and the LP!!!”

    3) Overhearing Shane Cory curse a little too loudly under his breath when Outright showed up at the CLC event with a booth of our own

    4) Watching Shane shit his pants when Angela and I grilled Bob Barr on DOMA in front of an assemblage of Libertarians and Republicans alike right in front of the Outright booth

    5) Enjoying engagement from youth at various LP events, who are attracted to Angela like moths to a flame and who are attracted to Aaron, Stewie and M like gourmets to a Waffle House

    And here’s a host of other entertaining (and not so entertaining) memories of the last 18 months:

    1) Recalling when the LP violated its fiduciary duty by voting to make LP campaign resources available to a Republican incumbent congressman campaigning for a Republican nomination in an election contested by the Libertarian Party

    2) Watching in stunned amazement this past election cycle as the Libertarian Party National Committee and web site refused to comment on California’s Prop 8 (or any similar amendments), and doubling that amazement when a vote for the LP of California to post the no-on-8 logo to its web site failed… not to mention the “fun” I had in explaining that “oversight” to all and sundry

    3) Answering with a confused “The national committee is against it, I think” whenever I was asked about the LP’s position on the TARP, Citigroup bailouts, etc…. followed closely by me having to cite Bob Friggin’ Barr as the only Libertarian in national officialdom on this issue due to his proposed bill to ban bailouts

    4) Showing up twice on the Signorile Show on SIRIUS Radio to comment on and defend the Barr candidacy from the righteous indignation of the LGBT community (by talking about his “evolution” on the issues and stating he’s no worse than Hillary Clinton… a world class defense of a Libertarian if I’ve ever heard one). Not to mention watching Angela struggle heroically to defend the indefensible candidacy herself without compromising her world-class integrity

    5) Popping up on CBS News to talk about alternative candidacies… closely followed up by having the CBS News people inform me that the LNC members I referred them to (including Stewie) didn’t return their requests for comment… followed by complaints from some of the same people about a “media blackout” of Libertarian candidates

    6) 42 newspaper and news magazine interviews in one week (mostly gay press) the week after the Barr nomination, grabbing the Libertarian Party’s Worst Ever Presidential Ticket the Best Ever Media Coverage it’s received in the LGBT community’s media

    7) Watching Rob Power get profiled in the Advocate twice in a year — beating out the heads of the Stonewall Democrats and Log Cabin Republicans for coverage in 2009

    8) Noting that the only significant Washington press coverage (with photograph) that the LPHQ received was an article about the Communications Director’s efforts to sell his SUV

    9) Watching the Munger campaign run just about a perfect campaign with the resources they had — and watching LP national do nothing to leverage it

    10) Explaining to media contacts that I had no clue why their requests for interviews with top LP officials I referred them to were ignored, and also that the full-time LP national HQ PR resource was not at HQ but working for the Barr campaign and thus was probably not returning their emails for that reason

    11) Watching LPHQ celebrate an interview of Redpath in a bunny suit on YouTube as a media breakthrough less than 48 hours after a chat with a media person complaining that LNC members never return requests for interviews… and explaining to them that they’re “very busy” and “usually ignore me too.” ;)

    12) Watching the idiotarians (try to) beat up on George Phillies and his team, even as they grabbed media attention and ballot access cash for the LP…

    13) Reading leaked e-mails from the LNC (which is leakier than the Speedwell) defaming every candidate running for the Libertarian nomination with the exception of Barr himself… and publicly slamming the effort to defame Dr. Ruwart… and reading LNC e-mails written by the culprit trying to pin the whole Ruwart thing on George Phillies

    14) Watching the LNC claim it didn’t have enough money to complete a ballot drive in WV on time

    15) Watching the LNC claim it had enough money to bash Phillies in NH despite not having enough to actually get access in WV

    16) Watching the LNC’s lawsuit call its effort to remove George from the ballot while Barr was already on the ballot a “substitution lawsuit” (and seeing that Orwellian phrasing repeated by Stewie in his List of Supreme Soviet challenges to Ms. Keaton)

    17) Watching Mike Gravel get pissed off every time someone referred to him as a Democrat during the National Convention

    18) Watching some LNC members bask with pride every time someone referred to them as Republicans during the National Convention

    19) Watching Christine Smith get drunker and drunker at the Capitol Barr in Denver before losing it over only getting 6 votes

    Some of this stuff would make the stuff for a funny memoir… but I have to say, it’s not making the stuff of an effective political party when the brain trust at the top is sharing but a single cell of grey matter.

    Whether or not Stewie, Starr, Redpath and Carling succeed in shitting all over Angela (and us) by throwing her off the LNC (and disenfranchising those of us who voted for her), those who are left should take a look at what they hath wrought.

    Is it something to be proud of?

  26. Gee, I wish I was still a member of the LP so I could quit over the crappy way AK is being treated. I’m soooo embarrassed to have ever been affiliated with such a corrupt, un-libertarian organization.

    Don’t vote, RESIST!

  27. Let me suggest that readers endeavor to ensure that their state chair — I’m not one of them any more — makes sure that all teh other state chairs see this gem of reasoning.

  28. Rather than digging up dirt, what I’d like to see is an investigation into each LNC member to determine exactly what they have done to ACTUALLY defend liberty. I’m not talking about raising money for the LP, running for office or anything like that. I want to know what has each member done that they can point to with pride, such as eliminating a government agency, organizing an effort that lowered or abolished taxes, ended some regulation or anything like that.

    Now, compare their track record for liberty against what they have been doing on the LNC.

    Are they for liberty, or simply entrenching their power? Let their records speak for themselves.

  29. I don’t have much time to look into this, but I was thinking about the SCOTUS case “Hustler Magazine V. Falwell”, in which Jerry Falwell attempted to sue Larry Flynt over a fake advertisement which basically ridiculed him.

    The court found that Falwell was a public figure and that as such, ridicule and unfavorable remarks are an acceptable price to pay as a public figure. Though the LNC are clearly not public figures, I think it can be argued that they are “limited figures”.

    I’m not saying that this case should apply to the Keaton situation, but clearly, one cannot take on a public leadership position and not expect ridicule and unfavorable remarks in a public forum. Want to be on the LNC? Better grow a thick skin and roll with the punches. No crying to mommy. Just freaking deal with it.

  30. Jenny and Lisa sound like two more skulking trolls…

    BTW, I got a kiss from Angela at Denver. It’s on the back of one of her AWC business cards. Would that be harassment too? Oh, wait, I asked for it as a joke, and my wife chuckled at it. Guess not.

    Proving once again that some people have no sense of humor.

    If they think she’s snarky, they ought to read some of the stuff *I* write. Y’all see the tame stuff here!

  31. Gene, elected political party officials are considered public figures under the law, so the same standard for Falwell applies for the LNC members.

  32. Mike: true, but my understanding is that if one’s public expose is not broad, but limited in scope (such as being on the LNC), then it would be a “limited public figure”. But that’s just splitting hairs. In any event, they chose to be in the public eye and as such, should expect some comments they may not particulalrly like. People like Aaron Starr can scream “private organization! Private organization!” all they wish (like he has done in the past with regard to the LPC), but the matter of fact is that they all placed themselves in the public light. With a target placed upon them, there should be no shock when someone wants to fire off a few verbal or written rounds.

  33. Hey, I like Waffle House, and Angela.

  34. Gene, of course not. If they don’t want to be in the public eye and expect things like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4TLIn6o1_ZA/SMSuLP6cSZI/AAAAAAAAABY/yB_DoJ1qbPw/s1600-h/Starr+E+Neuman.jpg, then they should resign or not run and look stupid in the first place.

  35. Could supporting another political party include supporting Ron Paul, a Republican. Or is that not scarier than supporting a libertarian party like the BTP?

  36. Yes, how about we discipline all the LP members who just spent the last campaign supporting a Republican for President (yeah yeah, he’s a Life Member of the LP, bla bla bla, but he won’t touch us with a 10-foot pole anymore and he ran in the *Republican* primaries). How about we discipline our most recent Presidential candidate (an LNC member) for giving material and press support to Republican candidates, up to and including his endorsement of Saxby Chambliss in today’s Georgia Senate runoff? At least (if memory serves me correctly) the unsuccessful Libertarian candidate in that race had the decency to endorse neither major party candidate.

    In closing, I demand an apology from Angela Keaton for leaving me as one of perhaps just ten or twelve people in the entire U.S. of A. not included on the “indictment” list as deserving of an apology.

  37. Yes, I chuckled. I guess I have evolved past a need for strict protocol. I can recognize when something is just a harmless joke or a small shameless flirt. (and for reasons neither of us understand, Mike gets flirted upon by a LOT of ladies!)

    Looking through the resolution I see the following.

    1. Most of the stuff is minor harmless snarking. Geesh, I do this ALL the time with my hubby. He snarks right back at me. This is fine with both of us. Angela has an attitude and uses it. Live with it.

    2. Most of this stuff occured either before or during the September ExComm meeting. As such it should have been dealt with during that meeting and should be declared out of order as business for this meeting. Only one item qualifies as new business.

    3. If we’re going to throw stones in a fishbowl around here, what about what’s been said TO Angela, or others? I know of some Women’s Caucus members who have been leered at by various LP men, including some well known names. Angela is repeatedly called a “bitch” among other things. Unless “bitch” is really the acronym B.I.T.C.H. then it’s uncalled-for. (Beautiful Individual that Creates Havoc)

    4. What about more serious allegations of material support, such as the Barr memo calling for libertarians to support Chambliss, or his financial support of GOP allies? I can live with the earlier support of the RP campaign since he is a lifelong Libertarian, and still holds to a number of libertarian values. This cannot be said for the people Barr has supported.

    The reality is this– Mike could talk to any one of several LNC members to have some of this brought up. But we’re not going to bother. Call it free speech, move on.

    I’m reminded of a CA Assemblyman who wailed during the AB 1634 07-08 debate, “Here we are with a huge deficit, a crumbling infrastructure, and here we are debating about puppies and kittens!” We DO have much bigger things that we should be concerning ourselves about!!

  38. Lid, you’re right, there are bigger things to worry about, and the fact that this is even an issue proves the problem. The LP Georgia resolution has it right: LNC needs to get things back on track in the right direction, and this isn’t it.

    What this all comes down to is simple free speech and people getting their panties in a wad over it.

    Big fucking whoop-de-fucking-do. It’s free speech, and that’s all it is. If Stewie or Aaron or Billy Bob Redpath can’t stand the heat, then they should get out of the kitchen.

  39. Seebeck,
    I got several kisses from Keaton in Denver. ;o)

  40. I’m reminded of a CA Assemblyman who wailed during the AB 1634 07-08 debate, “Here we are with a huge deficit, a crumbling infrastructure, and here we are debating about puppies and kittens!” We DO have much bigger things that we should be concerning ourselves about!!

    Lidia,

    Why do you hate puppies?

  41. I left the LP about 11 years ago after an extremely rude and arrogant conversation with an LP staffer. All I can say is that this nonsense has been going on for far too long. The LP leadership has become is what the LP is supposed to oppose, a bloated, corrupt organization that only cares about keeping their jobs. They have totally failed at promoting the LP the way it should have been. I would suggest that the next time the LP members come up for re-election that ALL of them are defeated and then go in and clean out the staff. Those of us who put in hundreds of hours of sweat and tears for nothing deserve better than this.

  42. The antics of low-lifes like Starr and Cory is revolting. They are pure slime in the way they behave, the dirty tricks they use, etc. In Cory’s case I consider him and some of the Barr people openly corrupt in misusing their positions to push an agenda fo one “candidate” who clearly had already arranged to pay them for their “work” for him.

    We have to accept that the LP national was taken over by unscrupulous clowns in alliance with incompetents. After they pushed that Barr moron on us I stayed home and refused to vote LP. I don’t know any libertarians in my circle who actually bothered to vote this time because of the LP and the Barristas. The sooner the LP dies the better.

  43. Oops Susan that probably sounds bad. the bill in question would have mandatorily spayes and neutered every puppy and kitten in California– thereby essentially ending puppies and kittens out here. Fortunately we defeated the bill.

    Truth. I love puppies. My mom bred Dalmatians, I know breeders of Whippets, Boxers, Doxies, and more personally and of most breeds through one or another of my online contacts. My personal pack is two adopted retired racing Greyhounds and a Whippet who is just now becoming his own adult, we raised him through puppyhood.

    The point I was trying to make with the quote is just like California has much higher legislative priorities in fixing the budget crisis, so too the LP has much higher executive priorities in, say, helping grow membership than in does in disciplining a member.

  44. Lidia: I was joking.

  45. Miche, what you and the The Keaton did on the side is none of my business unless you want to make it that way. :)

    Susan, Lid doesn’t hate any puppies. We have one puppy and two dogs ourselves. (see my facebook album). We just hated the idea of the gummint forcing them to have elective surgery before they were ready for it, not to mention the forced part in the first place. The libertarian argument won the day on that one and AB1634 got thumped badly (5 aye, 27 nay, IIRC). We’re both proud to have helped engineer that defeat, along with a cast of thousands of humans and their pets. :)

  46. We figured you were joking. But it still required some explanation as to what we were talking about. :)

  47. Believe it or not, I could actually guess. I used to be pretty active in animal welfare, and these were always being bandied about. It’s a tough crowd for Libertarians, because it tends to be dominated by people who let their feelings do the thinking, if you catch my drift. Still, there were some of us there.

    And don’t worry, Lida – no government can *ever* stop puppies and kittens from being born in large numbers. To even imagine they can is to grant them godlike pwoers they can never have.

  48. Susan, it’s not the government pukes, it’s the PETA/H$U$ pukes. Prop 2 gave the latter the enforcement powers of the former.

    BTW, in CA it’s illegal for an ACO to determine if a pet is S/N, so enforcement would have been impossible anyway, and no one bothered to tell PETA that. We’re saving that as a trump card should it come up again.

  49. PS Mike and I are firmly in the Welfare camp– think people like Winograd. You’re right that the field is dominated by Animal Rights types and it’s something I’ve been working from a Libertarian angle for nearly two years now. I’ve made some fairly good friends in the CA dog and cat fancies as a result.

    You might be surprised– I actually got a lot of respect from that (dog and cat fancy) list, to the point when I finally left it that a moderator contacted me. (I was trying to scale back email and the group sorta lost focus after the bill’s defeat) That’s a potential for libertarian recruiting if we can ever get our internal crud straightened out.

  50. If I had a choice to vote for Bob Barr, Aaron Starr or a mixed-breed puppy, I’d pick the pup.

  51. Hey, someone else who knows how to spell “Faerie” correctly, very cool.

    I don’t have any particular animus against mixed-breed dogs. After all, all the breeding we have now originated in crossing a very few basic types. All Sighthounds probably have some ancestry with some common factor, probably Pharoah hounds but now we have descendants as different as Whippets and Irish Wolfhounds.

    Personally I have taken to the sighthounds and there aren’t a lot of confirmed sighthound mixes out there. And Greyhounds unquestionably need homes (at least for now– it will be very different in 10-15 years). Nor do I have any animus towards responsibly bred dogs. My Whippet, Triquetra Apollo Mac Finn, had two very carefully selected parents. It shows, he is an amazing dog if exasperating at times (he is still quite young)

    BTW, I wouldn’t pick Starr or Barr either.

    Apollo 2012? Nah…. he’d alienate the cat fanciers.

  52. You’re right that the field is dominated by Animal Rights types …

    Err, I was actually referring just to the welfare types. At least the rightists are (somewhat) consistent – if you think dogs and cats have rights you ought to stand up for them. But so many welfarists are so wrapped up in emotion they can’t understand why asking government to make other people behave in the way YOU want them to behave is a bad idea, impractical, and just plain wrong.

  53. I’d pick a pooch over ANY bi-ped.

  54. Susan, you just described the Animal Rights crowd (the “ARistas”, PETA, HSUS, etc.). The Animal Welfarists (breeders, farmers, ranchers, etc.) view animals as property to be responsibily cared for. They view pets as responsibilities and beneficial, stock as food (and pets at times), and know what it means to own a pet. They are different, miles apart.

  55. It seems that the rights of the party supersedes the rights of the individual. I thought this philosophy is what we libertarians have been fighting.

  56. >Hey, I like Waffle House, and Angela.<

    I like Opera and Country/Western music.

    I seem to also be one of the 12 people in the US who apparently is not owed an apology by Angela

    Why do we not have an animal rights platform?

    I’m serious about this; it’s something I have been wondering about for quite some time.

    How do you define human rights?

    I have known animals with souls and people without them.

  57. Kate, we do not have an animal rights platform because animals are property–with special responsibilities, granted–but property nonetheless.

    After the AB1634 fight, which we helped WIN, do you really want to go there? PETA and HSUS are lunatics who favor socialism and control over people’s lives in the most un-libertarian ways–banning what we can eat, wear, or own.

    No, thanks!

  58. And the presence of a soul has nothing to do with the existence of rights. Rights are a concept developed by human consciousnesses in order for our species to coexist. Other animals have Mother Nature. If we had only that to go by, we’d have been extinct eons ago. Humans developed and evolved their concepts of community and rights over time for pure survival.

    Cue Holtzbabble in 5..4..3..

  59. I don’t believe animals have any particular “rights”, but I do believe in the humane and compassionate treatment of animals whenever possible. In my personal life, I try and minimize negative impact upon animals, such as not eating meat, not going to rodeos and the circus & things like that. I’m not absolutely consistent because I do own a leather jacket and I do own a couple piece of leather furniture. Like I said, I aim to *minimize* my negative impact. I believe that individuals adopting a more humane attitude toward animals has a greater impact than lobbying for so-called “animal rights”.

  60. Verifiable endangerment of a species or ecosystem that is part of the commons of a community is aggression against any non-consenting member of that community. Persons must refrain from inflicting intentional cruelty on sensate beings, and respect their freedom in proportion to the cognitive capacity of their kind.

    Prop 2 just passed in California, giving farmers until 2015 to eliminate the confinement of “pregnant pigs, calves raised for veal, and egg-laying hens in a manner that does not allow them to turn around freely, lie down, stand up, and fully extend their limbs.” The LPCA ExCom had approved a motion opposing the measure, over my lone dissenting vote of “neigh”. The LP ought to get ahead of the curve here, but we aren’t yet institutionally capable of thinking in the shades of gray required by franchise issues like animal rights. We barely have a handle on children’s rights, and have never coherently addressed the rights of the unborn.

    Last year Spain became the first nation to extend some individual rights beyond humans. It did so by adopting provisions of the 1993 Declaration on Great Apes: http://www.greatapeproject.org/declaration.php

    For a summary of various declarations of individual rights throughout history, see libertarianmajority.net/bills-of-rights-archive

  61. >PETA and HSUS are lunatics who favor socialism and control over people’s lives in the most un-libertarian ways–banning what we can eat, wear, or own.<

    This is indeed true. Why it would be nice to hear a Libertarian take on animal rights.

  62. The libertarian take on “animal rights”?

    Animals have no rights in the human sense, because rights are a human construct.

    But, if a human is going to have pets, then there are some responsibilities that come with that ownership.

    Those responsibilities include, in the broad sense:

    -quality food and clean water
    -quality health care
    -a commitment for the pet’s life
    -protection from harm, including the harm of the government
    -no abuse or neglect

    This is the stance of most Animal Welfare advocates. For instance, our dogs eat human quality foods, see the vet as needed without question, and are generally spoiled rotten for as long as they live. HOWEVER we do not treat them as furry people. They are pack and we are the pack Alphas.

    The fundamental flaw of the AR movement is to confuse rights with responsibilities, and to treat animals as being equivalent with people. Dogs do not think the same as we do. They naturally form an absolute loyalty to whomever they view as the Alpha of the pack. What is seen as “animal slavery” by an AR is really just the natural instinct of the animal. They want the precious love AND leadership of a good Alpha. And believe me, they are quite happy relaxing on the sofas–if that’s “slavery”, then where can I sign up? :)

  63. “Prop 2 just passed in California, giving farmers until 2015 to eliminate the confinement of “pregnant pigs, calves raised for veal, and egg-laying hens in a manner that does not allow them to turn around freely, lie down, stand up, and fully extend their limbs.” The LPCA ExCom had approved a motion opposing the measure, over my lone dissenting vote of “neigh”. The LP ought to get ahead of the curve here, but we aren’t yet institutionally capable of thinking in the shades of gray required by franchise issues like animal rights. We barely have a handle on children’s rights, and have never coherently addressed the rights of the unborn.”

    Speak for yourself, Brian. I have plenty of farm experience, starting with driving tractors and combines on my uncles’ farms at age 7. I’ve milked the cows, baled the hay, egged the hens, slopped the pigs, plowed, harvested, fertilized, the works. One of my life goals is to GTFO of the city and back to that for the clean air, open spaces, and growing my own healthy food.

    Prop 2 is not ahead of the curve. It is, in fact, regressive, an attempt to cripple the ag-meat industry in the state, by those who hate animals and people. The stock animals in question are in operations that market forces have developed and honed over generations for both humane care and efficiency. It was a direct infringement on farm and ranch owner’s property rights, and it was spearheaded by HSUS and PETA, a pair of radical socialist organizations that have no clue about ranching, farming, or animals in general. You really don’t see them in Iowa, because they get no traction there with their ignorance.

    There is no gray area on “animal rights”. Animals are property, but because they are living property, they have a special set of responsibilities, and those differ between pets and stock. The rights of children or the unborn are irrelevant to animal welfare.

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